1. #1
    Mazeppa's Avatar
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    Millennials Are Killing the Big 12

    Millennials Are Killing the Big 12

    First Applebee’s and now the Big 12? Young people are doing what they do best: Ruining dumb stuff

    One by one the teams in the Big 12 turned to high tempo, high scoring offenses. Bob Stoops brought the air raid offense to Oklahoma. Mike Leach did the same at Texas Tech. Mack Brown brought whatever the hell Greg Davis did to Texas. At some point, Oklahoma State, Baylor, Nebraska and even lowly Kansas also became offensive powerhouses.

    https://www.offtackleempire.com/2017...ing-the-big-12
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  2. #2
    Stoops completely changed the league when he brought Leach in.

  3. #3
    Lout's Avatar
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    That's ****ing stupid.
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  4. #4

  5. #5
    Absolutely idiotic.

    Here's what hurt Big 12 football...

    Hal Mumme and Mike Leach invent essentially idiot proof offensive scheme that favors finesse but doesn't need elite talent to hang tons of points on the board.

    Bob Stoops hired at Oklahoma. Turner Gill says no to Bob. Mike Leach doesn't.

    OU wins national title. Leach turns TTU into a winner.

    OU asserts dominance over Texas. Texas bends to finesse ball as well.

    Years later Leachian disciples turn around the low elite talent programs at Baylor, OSU. Dana hired at WVU.

    Smashmouth TCU joins Big 12, flounders, hires Leachian/Briles guys.

    I skipped a bunch of shit...but here's the punchline...

    Throughout, HS programs in Texas and Oklahoma emulate these systems for all the obvious reasons.

    Finesse conference, low elite talent pool (beyond natural freaks) and everyone trying to Outscore each other more than hold them down.

    The thing that is easiest to do MUST be done well. Fundamental. Defense, from pitching, fielding in baseball, to soccer to just about any sport, is most essential because it's the easier thing to do versus offense. So when you don't do it well, it's a massive hindrance.

    But you're caught in the Catch 22. If you aren't fighting fire with fire...you get outscored and you lose.

    In addition to all that, too many low relevance programs that have a tough time recruiting at a high level and too many small fanbases that make the TV contract worse relative to peers. So it all feeds on itself.

    Irrelevance, finesse, too small time, the easiest path for survivability for too many in the conference is eating those who could otherwise get there another way. And losing to them doesn't actually build them up, it tears you down. Performance demonstrates it...OOC, bowl games, if it ain't in the friendly confines of XII Land it's a different world. Too many high football IQ people find it too easy to notice. Narratives form...pushed in the direction of larger fanbases and conferences. Negative bias made easy.

    Thank God we have been able to recruit to Brand Oklahoma and had a steward like Bob Stoops that was respected enough to recruit well beyond the base of Arena Football programs in our high schools.

    This is the dumbed down Typing On My Phone version.

  6. #6
    Tough Guy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Hamilton View Post
    Absolutely idiotic.

    Here's what hurt Big 12 football...

    Hal Mumme and Mike Leach invent essentially idiot proof offensive scheme that favors finesse but doesn't need elite talent to hang tons of points on the board.

    Bob Stoops hired at Oklahoma. Turner Gill says no to Bob. Mike Leach doesn't.

    OU wins national title. Leach turns TTU into a winner.

    OU asserts dominance over Texas. Texas bends to finesse ball as well.

    Years later Leachian disciples turn around the low elite talent programs at Baylor, OSU. Dana hired at WVU.

    Smashmouth TCU joins Big 12, flounders, hires Leachian/Briles guys.

    I skipped a bunch of shit...but here's the punchline...

    Throughout, HS programs in Texas and Oklahoma emulate these systems for all the obvious reasons.

    Finesse conference, low elite talent pool (beyond natural freaks) and everyone trying to Outscore each other more than hold them down.

    The thing that is easiest to do MUST be done well. Fundamental. Defense, from pitching, fielding in baseball, to soccer to just about any sport, is most essential because it's the easier thing to do versus offense. So when you don't do it well, it's a massive hindrance.

    But you're caught in the Catch 22. If you aren't fighting fire with fire...you get outscored and you lose.

    In addition to all that, too many low relevance programs that have a tough time recruiting at a high level and too many small fanbases that make the TV contract worse relative to peers. So it all feeds on itself.

    Irrelevance, finesse, too small time, the easiest path for survivability for too many in the conference is eating those who could otherwise get there another way. And losing to them doesn't actually build them up, it tears you down. Performance demonstrates it...OOC, bowl games, if it ain't in the friendly confines of XII Land it's a different world. Too many high football IQ people find it too easy to notice. Narratives form...pushed in the direction of larger fanbases and conferences. Negative bias made easy.

    Thank God we have been able to recruit to Brand Oklahoma and had a steward like Bob Stoops that was respected enough to recruit well beyond the base of Arena Football programs in our high schools.

    This is the dumbed down Typing On My Phone version.
    Argument is overstated

  7. #7
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    What killed the Big-12 is the selfishness of Texas, especially them running off Nebraska and A&M.

    They shot themselves in the foot with their selfishness. As Texas goes down, the Big-12 goes down.

    No one can accuse Oklahoma of not doing more then their share to try and sustain the league.

  8. #8
    Yuck Fu's Avatar
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    Ah so, mutha fucka.

    I think the irony here is that Bama recognized that the teams designed to stop the spread were smaller, lighter, more in-space type defenders and they moved to a power offense and it has obviously worked. But at the same time, a team that could beat Bama is a spread team by outscoring them. It would be pretty hard to beat Bama at their own game.


    Probably the one thing the Big XII could have used is Nebraska still being around and a couple other teams that played physical football to prepare defenses for that style of ball. I certainly was optimistic after the Auburn game in that the OU D stood toe to toe with a physical offense (all the while realizing that Auburn did not have great QB play). This despite OU not playing anyone prior to that who played that style of offense during the entire season save maybe tOSU and perhaps ISU.

  9. #9
    People seem to forget that in the first half of Bob's tenure the Big 12 South was considered the equal of the S E.C. West. Let's call it like it is...losing the 4 schools from the original 12 really hurt.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Mazeppa View Post
    Millennials Are Killing the Big 12

    First Applebee’s and now the Big 12? Young people are doing what they do best: Ruining dumb stuff

    One by one the teams in the Big 12 turned to high tempo, high scoring offenses. Bob Stoops brought the air raid offense to Oklahoma. Mike Leach did the same at Texas Tech. Mack Brown brought whatever the hell Greg Davis did to Texas. At some point, Oklahoma State, Baylor, Nebraska and even lowly Kansas also became offensive powerhouses.

    https://www.offtackleempire.com/2017...ing-the-big-12
    I know this is all a joke, but when are people going to realize it's the baby boomers that raised the millennials? History will show that in fact, the baby boomers are the laziest generation resting on the accomplishments of their parents. Their parents worked hard to make this country great and baby boomers reaped the benefits, all while ruining it when they got in charge. Then they had children, decided to baby them and the millennials are to blame for this? Oh, yeah it's the baby boomers that are the ones complaining about it. They can't even take responsibility for what they've done. Whether that be with the country, their children, or the planet earth. Time for ya guys to die off (or retire) and let the most educated generation have a swing at it. You know so you can live out the rest of your lives living off of the accomplishments of the millennials.

    Too keep this football related, good the big 12 sucks anyway.
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  11. #11
    It also hasn't helped that Texas high school football teams have gone to the spread. It's made for more finesse and less physical recruits from the state of Texas as well. They used to be loaded with big time defensive tackle recruits, but it hasn't seemed that way for the past several years now.
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  12. #12
    Originally Posted by DYNOMITE View Post
    I know this is all a joke, but when are people going to realize it's the baby boomers that raised the millennials? History will show that in fact, the baby boomers are the laziest generation resting on the accomplishments of their parents. Their parents worked hard to make this country great and baby boomers reaped the benefits, all while ruining it when they got in charge. Then they had children, decided to baby them and the millennials are to blame for this? Oh, yeah it's the baby boomers that are the ones complaining about it. They can't even take responsibility for what they've done. Whether that be with the country, their children, or the planet earth. Time for ya guys to die off (or retire) and let the most educated generation have a swing at it. You know so you can live out the rest of your lives living off of the accomplishments of the millennials.

    Too keep this football related, good the big 12 sucks anyway.

    I'm not a Baby Boomer (age 52-70), but Generation X (age 36 to 51), and I think Generation X was/is the problem in regards to millennials being little ****es. That's the era when ass kickings by parents at home and swats at school by the principals were punishable by death penalty it seems. I can't be blamed though for contributing to millennial ****-wits because I don't have any kids, just two dogs, Boomer3 and Sooner2. I know a lot of Baby Boomers that worked their ass off and were financially responsible. Generation X is when the mentality changed.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by owenfieldreams View Post
    People seem to forget that in the first half of Bob's tenure the Big 12 South was considered the equal of the S E.C. West. Let's call it like it is...losing the 4 schools from the original 12 really hurt.
    The Big 12 in the early 00's was really good football.
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  14. #14
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    Originally Posted by zcaa0g View Post
    I'm not a Baby Boomer (age 52-70), but Generation X (age 36 to 51), and I think Generation X was/is the problem in regards to millennials being little ****es. That's the era when ass kickings by parents at home and swats at school by the principals were punishable by death penalty it seems.
    I'm late Gen X. "Swats" in school were given all the time. My mother broke a TV remote on my head by throwing it across the room at me. What you're saying didn't happen during my time.
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  15. #15
    Originally Posted by owenfieldreams View Post
    People seem to forget that in the first half of Bob's tenure the Big 12 South was considered the equal of the S E.C. West. Let's call it like it is...losing the 4 schools from the original 12 really hurt.
    Equal? I'd say better.

    Turning point was the UT/Bama title game. SEC West had more titles 99-08 (plus the 09 regular season), but the average quality of the Big XII South was better (and it had two national titles and 4 other appearances).
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  16. #16
    Originally Posted by OUDoc View Post
    I'm late Gen X. "Swats" in school were given all the time. My mother broke a TV remote on my head by throwing it across the room at me. What you're saying didn't happen during my time.
    Maybe the younger end of Gen X then, but it certainly wasn't during the Baby Boomer era. And I'm not talking the Gen X themselves, but the children of Gen X and that era of schooling.

  17. #17
    Val on the Getner's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Hamilton View Post
    Absolutely idiotic.

    Here's what hurt Big 12 football...

    Hal Mumme and Mike Leach invent essentially idiot proof offensive scheme that favors finesse but doesn't need elite talent to hang tons of points on the board.

    Bob Stoops hired at Oklahoma. Turner Gill says no to Bob. Mike Leach doesn't.

    OU wins national title. Leach turns TTU into a winner.

    OU asserts dominance over Texas. Texas bends to finesse ball as well.

    Years later Leachian disciples turn around the low elite talent programs at Baylor, OSU. Dana hired at WVU.

    Smashmouth TCU joins Big 12, flounders, hires Leachian/Briles guys.

    I skipped a bunch of shit...but here's the punchline...

    Throughout, HS programs in Texas and Oklahoma emulate these systems for all the obvious reasons.

    Finesse conference, low elite talent pool (beyond natural freaks) and everyone trying to Outscore each other more than hold them down.

    The thing that is easiest to do MUST be done well. Fundamental. Defense, from pitching, fielding in baseball, to soccer to just about any sport, is most essential because it's the easier thing to do versus offense. So when you don't do it well, it's a massive hindrance.

    But you're caught in the Catch 22. If you aren't fighting fire with fire...you get outscored and you lose.

    In addition to all that, too many low relevance programs that have a tough time recruiting at a high level and too many small fanbases that make the TV contract worse relative to peers. So it all feeds on itself.

    Irrelevance, finesse, too small time, the easiest path for survivability for too many in the conference is eating those who could otherwise get there another way. And losing to them doesn't actually build them up, it tears you down. Performance demonstrates it...OOC, bowl games, if it ain't in the friendly confines of XII Land it's a different world. Too many high football IQ people find it too easy to notice. Narratives form...pushed in the direction of larger fanbases and conferences. Negative bias made easy.

    Thank God we have been able to recruit to Brand Oklahoma and had a steward like Bob Stoops that was respected enough to recruit well beyond the base of Arena Football programs in our high schools.

    This is the dumbed down Typing On My Phone version.
    To add to this -

    The big problem is the level of competitiveness in the conference itself, exacerbated by the previous oil boom. Fact is, a well-run college conference is more like a wrestling promotion than a true competition. You want a top babyface program (Texas), a monster heel program (us, like it or not), jobbers to the stars (formerly the likes of A&M, Colorado), and then regular jobber programs. If everyone accepts their role, everyone does better, draws crowds, and makes a lot of money together.

    However, there were a lot of oilmen who got rich during the last boom, who didn't want alma mater to play at being a jobber anymore. T. Boone is the best example of this, followed by the Baylor crew. So they sank a ton of money into their programs to raise the level of competitiveness, not realizing they were kneecapping the conference in the process. Now, instead of having that compelling hierarchy, you've got a bunch of 50/50 games, where winning and losing no longer advances any sort of broader storyline, since anyone can win or lose at any time in the Big 12. That's boring to follow, unless you're a fan of the school itself.

    The Big 12 does not have enough of those fans to make a difference. Everyone knows this, but ego gets in the way, just like it did in the SWC during the last oil boom/bust cycle.
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  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by Val on the Getner View Post
    To add to this -

    The big problem is the level of competitiveness in the conference itself, exacerbated by the previous oil boom. Fact is, a well-run college conference is more like a wrestling promotion than a true competition. You want a top babyface program (Texas), a monster heel program (us, like it or not), jobbers to the stars (formerly the likes of A&M, Colorado), and then regular jobber programs. If everyone accepts their role, everyone does better, draws crowds, and makes a lot of money together.

    However, there were a lot of oilmen who got rich during the last boom, who didn't want alma mater to play at being a jobber anymore. T. Boone is the best example of this, followed by the Baylor crew. So they sank a ton of money into their programs to raise the level of competitiveness, not realizing they were kneecapping the conference in the process. Now, instead of having that compelling hierarchy, you've got a bunch of 50/50 games, where winning and losing no longer advances any sort of broader storyline, since anyone can win or lose at any time in the Big 12. That's boring to follow, unless you're a fan of the school itself.

    The Big 12 does not have enough of those fans to make a difference. Everyone knows this, but ego gets in the way, just like it did in the SWC during the last oil boom/bust cycle.
    That is great analysis, but why do you put Texsa in the babyface role and OU in the heel role?

    I think OU is more well liked nationally than Texsa.
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  19. #19
    OUDoc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Stinger_1066 View Post
    That is great analysis, but why do you put Texsa in the babyface role and OU in the heel role?

    I think OU is more well liked nationally than Texsa.
    That's what I was thinking. We aren't the only ones who hate texas.
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  20. #20
    Val on the Getner's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Stinger_1066 View Post
    That is great analysis, but why do you put Texsa in the babyface role and OU in the heel role?

    I think OU is more well liked nationally than Texsa.
    Because Texas "deserves" to be on the mountaintop, on account of how big their program is, how much people who don't care about the program love the longhorn head logo, and because Texas = football in a lot of people's mind. Just look how much shine VY got, compared to a superior athlete like Cam Newton (who always was getting heat, even when he dominated - Auburn's a heel jobber to the stars program). Even if Texas is getting heat, it's the "why does that guy have to always be on the top" kind like Hogan would get back in the day, or Reigns gets nowadays.

    OU historically has been the upstarts who cheated to get to where we are, never stayed down when we were beaten, and are respected by the rest of the country if not liked, just as any monster heel should be. We can play the tweener from time to time, but at the end of the day, more people wanted USC and Florida to beat us in '05 and '08 than the other way around, especially because of how we were able to screw USC in '03, and Texas in '08.
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  21. #21
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    Originally Posted by Mazeppa View Post
    Millennials Are Killing the Big 12

    First Applebee’s and now the Big 12? Young people are doing what they do best: Ruining dumb stuff

    One by one the teams in the Big 12 turned to high tempo, high scoring offenses. Bob Stoops brought the air raid offense to Oklahoma. Mike Leach did the same at Texas Tech. Mack Brown brought whatever the hell Greg Davis did to Texas. At some point, Oklahoma State, Baylor, Nebraska and even lowly Kansas also became offensive powerhouses.

    https://www.offtackleempire.com/2017...ing-the-big-12
    What? I thought rhe Big12 was already dead.

    Pretty sure I read that on LT.

    How does one kill that which is already dead?

  22. #22
    What's killed the Big 12 is Texas sucking ass for years now.

    I think the upcoming Herman-Riley rivalry is going to give it a huge boost, though.
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  23. #23
    Originally Posted by meandmybutt View Post

    How does one kill that which is already dead?


    You have to kill the brain.
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  24. #24
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    Originally Posted by ThreeHatBilly View Post


    You have to kill the brain.
    Big12 does not appear to be equipped with one of these "brains" that you speak of
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  25. #25
    Originally Posted by ChocoLab View Post
    What's killed the Big 12 is Texas sucking ass for years now.

    I think the upcoming Herman-Riley rivalry is going to give it a huge boost, though.
    Yeah. That's pretty much the only difference. The B12 South was OU, Texas, and a bunch of extremely well coached 2nd tier teams. Best division in college football. Same thing is in place now. Everyone is doing their job except the Longhorns. And UT didn't drop because Baylor, TCU, OSU, etc., got better. They still recruit circles around those schools. UT got worse because their coaching has been terrible for almost a decade.

    If UT were doing their job, it would matter more when TCU, OSU, Baylor, etc., beat them (like '08 Tech over Texas - which was a huge game nationally.) But using the wrestling analogy, it doesn't get an up-and-comer "over" to beat Cena if Cena is on a 50 match losing streak.

    If one of those 2nd tier schools had managed to start beating UT for recruits, maybe long term Texas suckage would matter less to our perception. Hasn't happened yet. I suspect Riley-Herman will restore the natural order.
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  26. #26
    Originally Posted by Stinger_1066 View Post
    What killed the Big-12 is the selfishness of Texas, especially them running off Nebraska and A&M.

    They shot themselves in the foot with their selfishness. As Texas goes down, the Big-12 goes down.

    No one can accuse Oklahoma of not doing more then their share to try and sustain the league.


    As much as i dont like Texas, they are not the sole reason Nebraska left. The Big 12 title game getting moved to Texas (without a rotation) was a big deal to Nebraska.....OU was completely fine having it in Texas every year. Additionally Nebraska was fine with each team keeping their own tier 3 TV rights.
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  27. #27
    Originally Posted by Stinger_1066 View Post
    What killed the Big-12 is the selfishness of Texas, especially them running off Nebraska and A&M.

    They shot themselves in the foot with their selfishness. As Texas goes down, the Big-12 goes down.

    No one can accuse Oklahoma of not doing more then their share to try and sustain the league.
    Bullshit. Nebraska voted for uneven revenue sharing. Nebraska was ever bit as selfish. Nebraska was the outlier in wanting to keep their bullshit walkon and academic qualifying standards.

    **** Nebraska. They couldn't beat Texas. They couldn't compete anymore so they got the hell out of Dodge and took the Big 10 cash.

    They cut off their nose to spite their face.

    Enjoy mediocrity, you non-hacking ****suckers.
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  28. #28
    Originally Posted by meandmybutt View Post
    Big12 does not appear to be equipped with one of these "brains" that you speak of
    That's why it still keeps moving.
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  29. #29
    Mazeppa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by meandmybutt View Post
    What? I thought rhe Big12 was already dead.

    Pretty sure I read that on LT.

    How does one kill that which is already dead?
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  30. #30
    Originally Posted by MI Sooner View Post
    Bullshit. Nebraska voted for uneven revenue sharing. Nebraska was ever bit as selfish. Nebraska was the outlier in wanting to keep their bullshit walkon and academic qualifying standards.

    **** Nebraska. They couldn't beat Texas. They couldn't compete anymore so they got the hell out of Dodge and took the Big 10 cash.

    They cut off their nose to spite their face.

    Enjoy mediocrity, you non-hacking ****suckers.
    Liked for pure venom
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  31. #31
    Mazeppa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DYNOMITE View Post
    I know this is all a joke, but when are people going to realize it's the baby boomers that raised the millennials? .
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  32. #32
    Originally Posted by owenfieldreams View Post
    People seem to forget that in the first half of Bob's tenure the Big 12 South was considered the equal of the S E.C. West. Let's call it like it is...losing the 4 schools from the original 12 really hurt.
    But... but... but... we're supposed to believe we're not playing in a shitty conference now!

  33. #33
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    Originally Posted by MI Sooner View Post
    Bullshit. Nebraska voted for uneven revenue sharing. Nebraska was ever bit as selfish. Nebraska was the outlier in wanting to keep their bullshit walkon and academic qualifying standards.

    **** Nebraska. They couldn't beat Texas. They couldn't compete anymore so they got the hell out of Dodge and took the Big 10 cash.

    They cut off their nose to spite their face.

    Enjoy mediocrity, you non-hacking ****suckers.
    I didn't say Nebraska's decision was the correct one. But Texsa drove them into making it.

  34. #34
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    Originally Posted by MI Sooner View Post
    Bullshit. Nebraska voted for uneven revenue sharing. Nebraska was ever bit as selfish. Nebraska was the outlier in wanting to keep their bullshit walkon and academic qualifying standards.

    **** Nebraska. They couldn't beat Texas. They couldn't compete anymore so they got the hell out of Dodge and took the Big 10 cash.

    They cut off their nose to spite their face.

    Enjoy mediocrity, you non-hacking ****suckers.
    They haven't won a conference title since 1999. That's right - they're 0-fer in the 21st century. I don't expect that to change any time soon. None of their current players would even remember the last one.
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  35. #35
    Originally Posted by OUDoc View Post
    I'm late Gen X. "Swats" in school were given all the time. My mother broke a TV remote on my head by throwing it across the room at me. What you're saying didn't happen during my time.
    Corporal punishment began to diminish in the md 80's. Everyone started getting trophies for just getting dressed in the 90's. America has been in decline ever since.
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  36. #36
    lots of whining and subjective revisionist history.

    sooner sports are doing as well as ever.

    ou football doesn't have the black athlete advantage it had in the '70s. but it's still top ten nearly every year -- far and away better than the gibbs/smelly/blake decade that preceded it.

    big 12 football lost some muscle when those four teams left. but basketball and baseball are better than ever.

  37. #37
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    Originally Posted by blackfrancois View Post
    lots of whining and subjective revisionist history.

    sooner sports are doing as well as ever.

    ou football doesn't have the black athlete advantage it had in the '70s. but it's still top ten nearly every year -- far and away better than the gibbs/smelly/blake decade that preceded it.

    big 12 football lost some muscle when those four teams left. but basketball and baseball are better than ever.
    Baaasbawl and basskitbawl? Are thems them queer sports?
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  38. #38
    Originally Posted by Tough Guy View Post
    Baaasbawl and basskitbawl? Are thems them queer sports?
    you obviously aren't familiar with sec baseball.

    and sec basketball is improving.

  39. #39
    I think every generation sucks in its own way.

    Also, **** Texas.
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  40. #40
    Poor Generation X.


    Too inconsequential to even be discussed.

  41. #41
    Originally Posted by Stinger_1066 View Post
    What killed the Big-12 is the selfishness of Texas, especially them running off Nebraska and A&M.

    They shot themselves in the foot with their selfishness. As Texas goes down, the Big-12 goes down.

    No one can accuse Oklahoma of not doing more then their share to try and sustain the league.
    Except that Boren should have done much more back then to keep the others...even allowing Texas to leave if necessary...

  42. #42
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    Originally Posted by lash View Post
    Poor Generation X.


    Too inconsequential to even be discussed.
    Nah we're just busy trying to fix all the shit the boomers ****ed up while also trying to explain to millenials that history existed before the internet.
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  43. #43
    lonetreebill's Avatar
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    These little shittin millennials have screwed up Applebee's and IHOP and now the Big 12. Those little ****s could screw up a junkyard or a one car funeral.

  44. #44
    Originally Posted by zcaa0g View Post
    little ****es.
    ....lol, that's what I call millennials



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  45. #45
    If the can succeed in killing the Big 12 and restaurant chains like Applebee's and Chili's I will give them a pass on everything else.

  46. #46
    Mack Brown brought whatever the hell Greg Davis did to Texas.

    This totally cracked me up.

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