Michigan passes "Right to Work"

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  1. #1

    Michigan passes "Right to Work"

    The unions have been fighting this one big time and lost. Large protests today at their capital. I would think in a state that has the 5th largest unemployment rate in the nation any change that could create jobs would be more welcomed. On the other end of the scale, 8 of the top 10 states with the lowest unemployment rates are right to work. I'm no expert in this just did a few quick Google searches but seems to me RTW works.
    http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/11/news...html?hpt=hp_t1

    As protesters descended on the Michigan Statehouse Tuesday, legislators passed a controversial "right-to-work" measure that would weaken unions' power.

    The House approved two bills, which the Senate already passed last week. Both chambers are dominated by Republicans.

    Gov. Rick Snyder, a Republican, has said he will sign the legislation, which would allow workers at union-represented employers to forgo paying dues.

    Thousands of people, many of them union workers, gathered outside the statehouse, chanting and holding signs as snow fell. At least three schools were closed as teachers traveled to Lansing to protest.

    There are 23 states which have right-to-work laws, mostly in the South and western plains states, where union membership is relatively weak. Nationwide, union membership stands at 11.8%.

    Michigan, the birthplace of the United Auto Workers where 17.5% of employees are represented by unions, would be by far the most heavily unionized state to pass such legislation. It would join neighboring Indiana in converting to right-to-work this year.

    "It would devastate the workers," UAW President Bob King told CNN Tuesday morning. "We're worried about all workers in the state of Michigan."

    Advocates of the bill say it will help attract businesses to the state, but critics say that it would weaken labor's bargaining strength by cutting union financial resources without doing anything to bring in more jobs.

    Employees in right-to-work states have lower wages, on average, than their counterparts elsewhere, according to Richard Hurd, professor of labor studies at the ILR School at Cornell University. That's because the unions are weaker in those states and aren't as effective in bargaining for higher wages.

    The average full-time, full-year worker in a right-to-work state makes about $1,500 less annually, according to the Economic Policy Institute, a left-leaning organization. The rate of workers covered by employer-sponsored health insurance is 2.6 percentage points lower, while pension coverage is 4.8 percentage points lower.

    The measure's passage would symbolize the declining fortunes of the nation's once powerful union movement. Only four states have passed right-to-work laws since the 1960s.

    "If right-to-work passes in Michigan, it demonstrates the weakness of the labor movement," Hurd said. "If it can happen in Michigan, there's a feeling it can happen anywhere."
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  2. #2
    pphilfran's Avatar
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    Right to work doesn't affect the unions to any measurable degree..the only thing it changes is that it will no longer be mandatory for a worker to join the union in a union shop...and if the worker decides to not join the union he/she will be exposed to a lot of grief from those that did join the union...so there will be very few that do not join the union...

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    okie52's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    Right to work doesn't affect the unions to any measurable degree..the only thing it changes is that it will no longer be mandatory for a worker to join the union in a union shop...and if the worker decides to not join the union he/she will be exposed to a lot of grief from those that did join the union...so there will be very few that do not join the union...
    Phil you are obviously delusional. Obama and others believe the opposite environment from what you have stated exists and all the more reason for "card check".
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    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    Phil you are obviously delusional. Obama and others believe the opposite environment from what you have stated exists and all the more reason for "card check".
    I know...

    In Tyler the plant I worked at employed over 2k and only 3 or 4 elected to not join the union...

    They would eat by themselves during lunch...only received the minimum of on the job support...and their names were posted on the "Scab board" that faced the highway outside the union hall...

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    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    I know...

    In Tyler the plant I worked at employed over 2k and only 3 or 4 elected to not join the union...

    They would eat by themselves during lunch...only received the minimum of on the job support...and their names were posted on the "Scab board" that faced the highway outside the union hall...
    The Scab board....LOL.

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    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    The Scab board....LOL.
    It was a ****ing billboard...faced Highway 31

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    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    It was a ****ing billboard...faced Highway 31
    I wonder if that meant much in TX?...might as well nominate the guy for mayor.

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    I am not really a union fan ..

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    I am not really a union fan ..
    As a former union member...I am not a fan either...
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    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    Right to work doesn't affect the unions to any measurable degree..the only thing it changes is that it will no longer be mandatory for a worker to join the union in a union shop...and if the worker decides to not join the union he/she will be exposed to a lot of grief from those that did join the union...so there will be very few that do not join the union...
    Bullsh...

    Right to work will eventually make a difference. And posting guys/gals on a Billboard smacks of why Unions were formed. It is also childish. It is also illegal. I can tell you this companies like CAT are quietly done with Unions because of their BS. Don't believe me look at what CAT is doing and has done with its manufacturing plants in Illinois since 2006.

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    Originally Posted by OUSchitzo View Post
    Bullsh...

    Right to work will eventually make a difference. And posting guys/gals on a Billboard smacks of why Unions were formed. It is also childish. It is also illegal. I can tell you this companies like CAT are quietly done with Unions because of their BS. Don't believe me look at what CAT is doing and has done with its manufacturing plants in Illinois since 2006.
    Don't know if it was legal or not but the sign was up for years...it was up when I transferred there in 85 and was probably taken down sometime in the mid 90's...

    Right to work changes nothing in the way unions are organized...does nothing to change the voting process...changes nothing in the way a contract is organized...only allows workers to exempt themselves from joining and paying dues...and like I said, in my experience, the vast majority still join even in a right to work state...

    It simply gives each worker a choice to join or not...

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    Right to work changes nothing in the way unions are organized...does nothing to change the voting process...changes nothing in the way a contract is organized...only allows workers to exempt themselves from joining and paying dues...and like I said, in my experience, the vast majority still join even in a right to work state...

    It simply gives each worker a choice to join or not...
    It takes a while but less and less will elect to join. My wife is a teacher and she isn't a member of the teachers union. The school district is actually very close to having less than 50% of the employees union members.

  14. #14
    okie52's Avatar
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    Right to work states in turquoise...and now add Michigan.
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    OUMallen's Avatar
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    Why turquoise?

    If the unions can deliver a viable service, then let them do it. Mandatory union membership is ridiculous to notions of freedom.

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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    Why turquoise?

    If the unions can deliver a viable service, then let them do it. Mandatory union membership is ridiculous to notions of freedom.
    Don't know why turquoise...just copied it.

    I've got no problem with unions being available but I never liked the closed shop approach...although I can see why unions would be PO'd about someone gaining from their collective bargaining.

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    OU48A's Avatar
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    As former member of the Union of Operating Engineers I am not a fan of unions either.
    I never saw any major difference in how people were treated who were not in the union.
    After becoming discussed that part of her dues were going to help support Obama and other like him my wife withdrew from her teachers union this past summer. She and many other teachers feel this particular local union is ineffective at best.

  18. #18
    OU48A's Avatar
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    If right to work was not a long term threat to unions why do they so strongly oppose right to work passage when it comes up for a vote?

    In this day and age anything that diminishes the power of unions is a move in the right direction.
    Over time passage of right to work does diminishes the union’s power.
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    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    Don't know why turquoise...just copied it.

    I've got no problem with unions being available but I never liked the closed shop approach...although I can see why unions would be PO'd about someone gaining from their collective bargaining.
    I am OK with unions in the private sector however they should obviously not be mandatory and in the public sector they should be outlawed altogether.

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    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post


    Right to work states in turquoise...and now add Michigan.
    I have a feeling that growth rates in right to work states have been on average higher than those that are not right to work?

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    Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    I am OK with unions in the private sector however they should obviously not be mandatory and in the public sector they should be outlawed altogether.
    Yeah, I don't support public employee unions...and certainly not as a right as those in Wisky seemed to believe.

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    Originally Posted by OU48A View Post
    I have a feeling that growth rates in right to work states have been on average higher than those that are not right to work?
    The United States Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics shows unemployment rates for states as of April 2012, seasonally adjusted,[29] to average as follows:
    CBS average unemployment rate 7.5%
    RTW average unemployment rate 6.9%

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    Originally Posted by Julz View Post
    The unions have been fighting this one big time and lost. Large protests today at their capital. I would think in a state that has the 5th largest unemployment rate in the nation any change that could create jobs would be more welcomed. On the other end of the scale, 8 of the top 10 states with the lowest unemployment rates are right to work. I'm no expert in this just did a few quick Google searches but seems to me RTW works.
    http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/11/news...html?hpt=hp_t1
    But most of the humps at these rallies have a job. The union ****s organizing these rallies sure have jobs. Ask the guys from Hostess how that union thing worked out.

    Originally Posted by SoonerArtillery View Post
    As a former union member...I am not a fan either...
    Kansas is a right to work state. When I worked for UPS I just gave my 40$ every month. Back in the early 80's it was best not to **** with the Teamsters.

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    is anyone here not pro right to work? i'd like to hear the flip side of the argument..i've worked in factories in ohio but they weren't unionized but treated us very well...personally i'm not against small unions but these mega unions are garbage

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    Originally Posted by pbc2003 View Post
    It takes a while but less and less will elect to join. My wife is a teacher and she isn't a member of the teachers union. The school district is actually very close to having less than 50% of the employees union members.
    I can't speak for unions in professional organizations but in a factory environment the pressure on the production floor is intense to join the union...

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    Originally Posted by OU48A View Post
    If right to work was not a long term threat to unions why do they so strongly oppose right to work passage when it comes up for a vote?

    In this day and age anything that diminishes the power of unions is a move in the right direction.
    Over time passage of right to work does diminishes the union’s power.
    It will hurt their revenue since some won't join...

    This law changes nothing other than giving each worker a choice in joining the union...

  27. #27
    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    It will hurt their revenue since some won't join...

    This law changes nothing other than giving each worker a choice in joining the union...
    It makes it easier to terminate a worker.

  28. #28
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    Originally Posted by SoonerPT View Post
    It makes it easier to terminate a worker.
    It shouldn't...if you have your documentation done properly you can fire an employee in both union and non union shops...I never lost a case when I managed in union factories and I fired far more union workers than non union over the years...

    The Lawton plant has far tougher regs to fire an employee than in any of the union plants...

  29. #29
    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    It shouldn't...if you have your documentation done properly you can fire an employee in both union and non union shops...I never lost a case when I managed in union factories and I fired far more union workers than non union over the years...

    The Lawton plant has far tougher regs to fire an employee than in any of the union plants...
    Today Chrysler had to rehire the guys that were drinking and getting high on their lunch breaks I believe.

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    Originally Posted by oucub23 View Post
    Today Chrysler had to rehire the guys that were drinking and getting high on their lunch breaks I believe.
    Saw that...went to an arbitrator and he reinstated them...don't know any of the details...

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    Originally Posted by andymancan20 View Post
    is anyone here not pro right to work? i'd like to hear the flip side of the argument..i've worked in factories in ohio but they weren't unionized but treated us very well...personally i'm not against small unions but these mega unions are garbage
    When I worked for Costco they paid union wages and had great benefits. The last union job I had was at Lucent and the union there just seemed to get in the way. It always seemed that they were worried about little shit that didn't matter. It's not like we're back in the days of The Jungle .

  32. #32
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    The Jungle...quite a book...had to read it in college...

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    I have to read that book.

    I just remember the attitude of the Union workers for CAT in Peoria. wow...they could really G.A.S.

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    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    The Jungle...quite a book...had to read it in college...
    I read it like in JH or HS. First book not by S King that made me squirm.

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    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    It will hurt their revenue since some won't join...

    This law changes nothing other than giving each worker a choice in joining the union...
    Over time, at least in theory, more jobs will relocate to a right to work state.

    As these non-union job numbers grow the unions will likely over time see their ability to influence events and decisions in that particular state reduced.
    So in that respect, the new law will likely gradually change things.

  36. #36
    The article also stipulates that the right to work state laborers earn less income, but at the same time the article does not take into account that most of these states have lower cost of living standards than their counterparts. The difference in pay thus needs to be adjusted for the cost of living differentiation between the two so as to be able to make an apples to apples comparison. Doing otherwise would be a misguided attempt to paint an unclear picture.

  37. #37
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    Originally Posted by sheepdogs View Post
    The article also stipulates that the right to work state laborers earn less income, but at the same time the article does not take into account that most of these states have lower cost of living standards than their counterparts. The difference in pay thus needs to be adjusted for the cost of living differentiation between the two so as to be able to make an apples to apples comparison. Doing otherwise would be a misguided attempt to paint an unclear picture.
    in our media....No chance

  38. #38
    This is unbelievably good news! Never thought I'd see this. Phil, the option to not join is monumental. And I think you're wrong, many choose not to join.

    Anybody want to take bets on how fast Obama claims his policies were the reason for the sudden drop in the unemployment rate in Michigan? Anybody?

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    Any guesses on how many non UAW folks there will be at Ford or GM?

    Over/under 0?

  40. #40
    Originally Posted by oucub23 View Post
    Today Chrysler had to rehire the guys that were drinking and getting high on their lunch breaks I believe.
    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    The Jungle...quite a book...had to read it in college...
    This is what today's unions are good for. They are money machines that sucks billions out of the paychecks of its members to pad their leaderships' pockets and give to politicians who will find ways for more padding of the pockets. In turn, they fight for the rights of the common worker, even when he shows up to work drunk and stoned.

    I read The Jungle about 10 years ago. That is certainly a time when organized labor was badly needed in our country. It could certainly be used right now in countries like Indonesia, where all those people just died in that factory fire. Awful story and I would fully support a legitimate union there if that's what it would take to provide safe working conditions. It might also have the effect of sending a few jobs back to the U.S.

    But for now in the U.S., unions have outlived their once-nobel purpose. Read The Jungle to understand what I mean.
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  41. #41
    Originally Posted by ltsooner View Post
    This is what today's unions are good for. They are money machines that sucks billions out of the paychecks of its members to pad their leaderships' pockets and give to politicians who will find ways for more padding of the pockets. In turn, they fight for the rights of the common worker, even when he shows up to work drunk and stoned.

    I read The Jungle about 10 years ago. That is certainly a time when organized labor was badly needed in our country. It could certainly be used right now in countries like Indonesia, where all those people just died in that factory fire. Awful story and I would fully support a legitimate union there if that's what it would take to provide safe working conditions. It might also have the effect of sending a few jobs back to the U.S.

    But for now in the U.S., unions have outlived their once-nobel purpose. Read The Jungle to understand what I mean.
    Interestingly, I don't think it's businesses finding morality or anything that's ended the need for unions in the US. I think the biggest thing that's killed the need is the explosion of social media. Companies simply can't get away with stuff today b/c things go viral too quickly, and the public backlash would be immediate and harsh.

  42. #42
    Originally Posted by oucub23 View Post
    Interestingly, I don't think it's businesses finding morality or anything that's ended the need for unions in the US. I think the biggest thing that's killed the need is the explosion of social media. Companies simply can't get away with stuff today b/c things go viral too quickly, and the public backlash would be immediate and harsh.

    Totally agree. The traditional media has loved to tell stories of employer abuse for years. But social media has thrown gas on the fire in terms of exposing (or the possibility of exposing) bad corporate behavior towards employees. And people can do it without having to get the attention of a reporter.

    For anyone who hasn't read The Jungle, I should've provided a time reference. My memory may not be the best, but I believe it was set sometime in the early 1900's.

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    Originally Posted by ltsooner View Post
    Totally agree. The traditional media has loved to tell stories of employer abuse for years. But social media has thrown gas on the fire in terms of exposing (or the possibility of exposing) bad corporate behavior towards employees. And people can do it without having to get the attention of a reporter.

    For anyone who hasn't read The Jungle, I should've provided a time reference. My memory may not be the best, but I believe it was set sometime in the early 1900's.
    1906

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle

  44. #44
    History will repeat is itself. Unions will slowly die off, companies will act right for a spell and then slowly but surely start to screw the workers over and then poof, unions will be back on the scene.

  45. #45

    Michigan passes "Right to Work"

    Originally Posted by bruthaman View Post
    History will repeat is itself. Unions will slowly die off, companies will act right for a spell and then slowly but surely start to screw the workers over and then poof, unions will be back on the scene.
    Won't happen. It's too easy to get complaints about mistreatment out now.

  46. #46
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    Originally Posted by oucub23 View Post
    Won't happen. It's too easy to get complaints about mistreatment out now.
    + There are many state and federal laws and regulations that are now on the books that were not in place 100 years ago.
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  47. #47
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    there are also more laws protecting workers who reveal corrupt or illegal activities at jobs...i agree that unions were needed and sometimes still are...many nurses are unionized and my wife is now starting a nursing career and we're looking at the pro's and con's of the issue...mostly the unions have battled to keep patient to nurse ratio down and number of hours per shift that can run congruently down so i think that's good...again big unions are the problem, local ones seem to have a decent enough purpose

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    Originally Posted by KCRuf/Nek View Post
    When I worked for Costco they paid union wages and had great benefits. The last union job I had was at Lucent and the union there just seemed to get in the way. It always seemed that they were worried about little shit that didn't matter. It's not like we're back in the days of The Jungle .
    Man I miss those days. I used to love it when the IBEW were having their elections. I'd have to run the gauntlet every morning and afternoon with them all wanting to hand me a flyer even though I couldn't vote. Some of those flyers were pretty funny. They used to get after their opponents pretty good, more so than management. One of the ex local presidents was one of my system testers. He was pretty smart and could do a good job when he wanted to, but most of the time he was more interested in stirring up shit. He told me a lot of good stories about shit they would pull, like getting some of the girls to bed one of the top management guys, and getting it all on film.

  49. #49
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    Originally Posted by bruthaman View Post
    History will repeat is itself. Unions will slowly die off, companies will act right for a spell and then slowly but surely start to screw the workers over and then poof, unions will be back on the scene.
    Gotta strike to get a raise!

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    Originally Posted by Stinger_1066 View Post
    Man I miss those days. I used to love it when the IBEW were having their elections. I'd have to run the gauntlet every morning and afternoon with them all wanting to hand me a flyer even though I couldn't vote. Some of those flyers were pretty funny. They used to get after their opponents pretty good, more so than management. One of the ex local presidents was one of my system testers. He was pretty smart and could do a good job when he wanted to, but most of the time he was more interested in stirring up shit. He told me a lot of good stories about shit they would pull, like getting some of the girls to bed one of the top management guys, and getting it all on film.
    I was CWA(same as at AT&T). My three years there were pretty calm. They were political and it was fun to see them all butthurt in 2000. My fondest memories was being a Teamster in the early 80's. I had a P/T job at an ad specialty place and they did all the promo items for roy Williams. One day two big thugs in suits just walked in the warehouse and up to the front. Then a limo pulled up and one of the local bosses got out with a suitcase full of money to pay the bill. There were some pretty testy times. My union dues at work.

    You need not look any further than the thuggery in the last week over this latest RTW debate. Assualts, property destruction, threats, etc. These goons from the left only know one way to act when someone stands up to them.

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