Wrong. Opinion. Opinion. Moving on.Originally Posted by Boognish
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Wrong. Opinion. Opinion. Moving on.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
This is a silly statement. The fact of the matter is that what you call "tactical weaponry" is really just better weaponry. Rails, pistol grips, adjustable stocks, they all make the gun more user friendly. There is nothing alarming about it, it is no different than a faster processor in a computer, or a better sensor in a camera.
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I can take a 50 year old shotgun and saw off the barrel and the stock and make it easier to conceal and more deadly. New has nothing to do with it.
The military version of the AR-15, the M16, has a cyclic rate of fire of 600 rounds per minute. That's actual automatic fire. It will empty a 30 round magazine in 3 seconds. An AR-15 doesn't come close to that.
Okay, this is my last post on this as we are going in circles and I'm about ready to go buy a gun and shoot myself.
I don't know anything about the guns he used, other than what has been said on here. Apparently someone said he used a .223 and each victim shot multiple times. And this thread wasn't started to discuss what gun he used, but the fact that he went on a killing spree with multiple guns made me wonder about gun laws in our country. You are the ones that are so damn stubborn, as I have said many times that I don't have a gun, obviously don't know the difference between a machine gun and an AR, and have also said many times that I am all for people having the right to bear arms, and protect their homes, etc. to an extent.
You argue that this guy stole the guns and he's a nut, whatever... but isn't it a bit ****ed up that he got multiple guns from one woman's home? WTF does one person need so many guns for? This type of **** will happen, and it will happen again. I'm not arguing to take all guns away, but Jesus Christ you guys act like I'm trying to get a petition signed for all guns to be dumped in the ocean.
Then you make arguments comparing rifles to gasoline, propane, a ****ing Jeep... Jesus Christ. I started this thread to see if anyone else thought there should be some minor changes to make it more difficult for ****heads to go on killing sprees like this. I for one think that there are some guns that should not be available to the public, and the number of guns should be regulated and checked. That is it. I'm not saying any more about the tragedy in Connecticut, as there is another thread on this board that is specifically for that topic... but there IS a problem in America with our general public's paranoia and fascination with guns, whether it is for protection against intruders, the end of the world, or ****s like this guy shooting up a ****ing elementary school. You can say what you will about other means to doing what he did, but the fact is he used guns, just like so many other situations like this recently, because they are so readily available in America. And I think that is an issue that should be looked at by people who can help do a better job of preventing these things from happening.
So in the words of Clark W. Griswold, "Hallelujah! Holy ****! Where's the tylenol?"
I'm out.
There is no problem with America's "fascination with guns". There is a cultural problem with a devaluation of life and there is a problem with the measures we use to protect our children.
There is going to be a lot of discussion about magazine capacities, and ****ault weapons and hunting, and all sorts of **** that doesn't have anything to do with maniacs killing children.
People say that only cops and military should have "****ault weapons". There are no more safeguards to becoming a cop in most communities than what is required to get a concealed carry license. It'd be nice if people really began to consider what it would take to prevent or limit the propensity of maniacs to kill our children. Instead, there will be a great deal of hysteria over things that won't make a damned bit of difference.
Start with mental health, society, etc. Banning the tools with not solve the problem.
Also, before you get into a debate about guns it's probably better for you to understand them. Educate yourself.
The difference between automatic and semi-auto:
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Again, you blame the tool not the person. They may not be good reasons to you, but they are to millions of Americans.
It's not what I call tactical weaponry, it is what the manufacturers and dealers call it. They call it this, because it makes people think that they are buying something for tactical purposes...and they are. The reason a wooden stocked hunting rifle is less "offensive" is it is engineered from he beginning at taking game in a natural, outdoor environment. Tactical weaponry, while fulfilling this at some degree, is also conceived to be used indoors to neutralize human targets. Everything about their design is to make them more efficient at neutralizing a human being.
It is indefensible to argue otherwise.
It's not indefensible and your statement is silly. You can go to any decent sized gun store and find black powder rifles with rails. The use of all sorts of features is transcending all sorts of guns. The traits that make "****ault rifes", "****ault rifles" are getting washed away, because they are getting used on all sorts of designs. Gun designs are evolving and improving, even if they are revolvers or "primitive" arms.
Ignorance on the topic is what hurts the most. This country lives in fear of everything. Some guys gets on tv and says one thing in particular is the reason/cause and the masses believe it as gospel truth despite the facts. Leading to panic and fear over what they don't understand or comprehend. Stricter laws will not prevent these things from happening. Guns arent the culprit here anymore than a pencil is for misspelling a work or a spoon is for making you fat as ****. If just one of those teachers had been armed no telling how many lives could have been saved.
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I own my share of guns. I also think there should be tighter gun laws. Maybe gun laws that are not so convoluted. Like I said earlier there is no easy answer for this. Not a quick fix. I enjoy my right to own a gun. I live in Oklahoma so I can also open carry or conceal. BUT if I knew for a fact that events like the most recent tragedy would not occur if guns were made illegal I would gladly give mine up. We all know that is not the case though.
What we have to address is how to solve this in a way that doesn't include having to arm our teachers. That's what is getting missed in all this gun freak out.
I don't own ****ault weapons. My BIL does though. Personally I don't see the need to own one. I don't understand the need some others feel to own an ****ault weapon. But they have the right to own it and I support that right. I don't need to understand it. But I really don't think the problem is the weapon. It's not how much ammunition it can hold or fire. It's the person holding the weapon. When families and friends, people in general, learn to notice the signs of mental illness and ignore the stigma that is attached to it. When they take it seriously, when it is reported it is handled the proper way THEN and only THEN will real change come.
There's no one thing that's going to prevent things like this from happening. This tragedy occurred because of a multitude of factors, not just one.
Personally, I don't think there's a need for ****ault rifles in this country, but then, a ban on ****ault rifles wouldn't have prevented the Virginia Tech massacre. That ****hole killed 30+ people with handguns only.
But why was someone with a history of serious mental problems like Cho Seung-Hui or James Holmes able to purchase deadly firearms with such ease? Clearly the system of background checks for firearms in this country sucks. Someone on the news was saying that 40% of gun sales require no background check in the US. That has to change. But there needs to be more barriers to gun purchases than just your criminal record. Lots of these school shooters have no criminal record but plenty of mental problems. I think most people would agree that crazy people shouldn't have guns.
Then there's the fact that Adam Lanza unsuccessfully attempted to buy guns on Tuesday but was able to simply take his mother's weapons and use those instead. If she thought he was at all capable of any violent behavior, then she probably should've put her guns somewhere else other than her closet or under her bed. But what's the answer to this problem? Mandate that all guns in households be put in gun safes?
I am not going to argue the definition of tactical.
Excellent choice. It would be stupid to do so.
What good is a gun in a safe when someone is breaking in your house?
Have the ones calling for a ban on firearms really looked at what caliber is used the most homicides? I'd be willing to bet that .38, .22, or 9mm is the most common while .223 is used rarely along with other high caliber rounds.
Actually arming the teachers is the answer here. The problem wasn't how many and what type of guns were at the crime scene but who was in control of the guns that were there. I can promise had a few of the teachers had a weapon and the knowledge of how to properly use it fewer people would have died.
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You can bet your last magazine we are going to be looking at capacity limits...I am guessing 6 rounds like a wheel gun...
But it won't make any difference...
You're looking at the small picture. If we arm the teachers we still have a school shooting. What's broken right now is a culture that leads to a school shooting.
I blame the person and the "tool".
the problem with you guys is that you all consider a gun, a knife, a rock, a car, a tire jack, a wrench a whatever as equivelent "tools".
This is obviously not true. Some of these "tools" are more effective than others as weapons in terms of what weapons are capable of doing.
If guns weren't a more effective "tool" than other devices then how about we just arm our service men with rocks and knives. How about the cops? And if all "tools" are the same then why do you guys carry guns on your person instead of a knife for instance.
We all understand that guns and other "tools" are inantimate objects that require a person to operate but I always think about that scene in Indiana Jones where he simply pulls out his pistol and shoots the sword weilding Arab. That illustrates my point just as well as anything else.
THIS is why guns are better.
Planes and fertilizer are better tools. Outlaw them.I blame the person and the "tool".
the problem with you guys is that you all consider a gun, a knife, a rock, a car, a tire jack, a wrench a whatever as equivelent "tools".
This is obviously not true. Some of these "tools" are more effective than others as weapons in terms of what weapons are capable of doing.
If guns weren't a more effective "tool" than other devices then how about we just arm our service men with rocks and knives. How about the cops? And if all "tools" are the same then why do you guys carry guns on your person instead of a knife for instance.
We all understand that guns and other "tools" are inantimate objects that require a person to operate but I always think about that scene in Indiana Jones where he simply pulls out his pistol and shoots the sword weilding Arab. That illustrates my point just as well as anything else.
THIS is why guns are better.
The suction device for an abortion is a pretty good tool, too. 1.2 million abortions/year. Lots of innocent lives lost there. Lets outlaw abortions, too.
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Type of weapon used in US murders...murders peaked in 1993
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/hom...weaponstab.cfm
1993
Handgun 13.981
Other gun 3,094
Knife 3,140 (more people killed by knife than rifle and shotgun combined)
Blunt object 1,082
Other weapon 3.233
2005
Handgun 8.478
Other gun 2.868
Knife 2,147
Blunt object 671
Other weapon 2.528
By age group
1993 Gun/Non gun
Under age 14 123/44
13-17 3,543/777
18-24 8,569/2,617
Over 24 7.244/4,720
2005 Gun/Non gun
Under age 14 24/35 (Down from 1993)
13-17 1,193/418
18-24 5,790/1,924
Over 24 5,665/4,077
24 and under account for about 2/3 of homicide by gun
24 and under account for about 1/3 of homicide by other
Young uns like their guns...
Victim age
Unintended consequences or collateral damage are often things that people either focus too much on or focus too little on when looking at a situation.
Take drug X for example. The greater good is that drug X will save lives and extend lives, but if taken improperly, or with other medications or if someone has an idiosyncratic reaction, there will be deaths. Until there is an unacceptable rate, the drug will stay on the market. The reality is that if the patient took care of the root cause, then the drug wouldn't be needed and the patient wouldn't be at risk for taking the drug.
The second issue is whether it is personal or a statistic. If it happens to you, or someone you know or is glorified n tv, it is personal. If it happens far away or numerous times, it is a statistic.
The issue with having guns is that we as a society appear to be willing to accept some deaths as collateral damage(sounds harsh) in order to preserve the right to defend ourselves from criminals and tyranny. History shows that we need to preserve that right. The question is, or at least should be, what steps need to be taken to ensure that right while limiting the "collateral damage" that is a consequence of that right?
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If I am not mistaken in most states you must be 21 to buy a handgun and 18 to buy a rifle...
So how did all of those underage murders take place with an already illegal handgun?
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Why does this graph go up to 120?Victim age
Automatic formatting on excel
Better?
And how will more restrictive gun laws stop underage from getting them if they are already getting them illegally?
Cuz it just will...
I look 10 points off for that but I'll give you 5 points back for fixing it.Better?
Thanks, much appreciated...
Lol, that seems to be the only answer.
We see how well those restrictive laws work in places like Chicago.
He picked a school because he knew no one would shoot back. They always do. If someone knows that there are people who will defend themselves, most will rethink what they are about to do.
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Your line of reasoning is combatted by two different aspects, which are likely weighted differently. Selfishness would be one while the other is blatant ignorance.I blame the person and the "tool".
the problem with you guys is that you all consider a gun, a knife, a rock, a car, a tire jack, a wrench a whatever as equivelent "tools".
This is obviously not true. Some of these "tools" are more effective than others as weapons in terms of what weapons are capable of doing.
If guns weren't a more effective "tool" than other devices then how about we just arm our service men with rocks and knives. How about the cops? And if all "tools" are the same then why do you guys carry guns on your person instead of a knife for instance.
We all understand that guns and other "tools" are inantimate objects that require a person to operate but I always think about that scene in Indiana Jones where he simply pulls out his pistol and shoots the sword weilding Arab. That illustrates my point just as well as anything else.
THIS is why guns are better.
I love being selfish. The wife and I have a whole safe + of selfishness. The tears of the gun grabbers make me warm inside.
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If you were'nt selfish would you have a void in your life?
You have to work on the "small picture" the "big picture" can't be solved because we have too many bleeding heart sons of ****es around that refuse to properly deal with sick ****s such as this one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting Think of how many lives were saved here because a school official had a weapon.
Spot on.....as I said the problem happened not by there being too many guns but by the fact there should have been more guns.
Valid point. If we simply focus on the small picture though and avoid the big pic, the cancer still is eating the core of the country away.
So tell us your "big picture" plan so we can all laugh and poke holes in it....Don't have one do you?
It's not. That was meant to be a rhetorical question. But the question remains, how do you keep guns out of the hands of crazy people if they can just look under their mother's bed and grab them? I don't know the answer to that.
Never let a crisis go to waste, huh Dems?
http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/th...ban-in-senate/
SANDY HOOK SHOOTING
I Am Adam Lanza's Mother
Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.
"I can wear these pants," he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.
"They are navy blue," I told him. "Your school's dress code says black or khaki pants only."
"They told me I could wear these," he insisted. "You're a stupid ****. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!"
"You can't wear whatever pants you want to," I said, my tone affable, reasonable. "And you definitely cannot call me a stupid ****. You're grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school."
I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.
A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan-they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.
That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn't have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.
We still don't know what's wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He's been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.
At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he's in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He's in a good mood most of the time. But when he's not, watch out. And it's impossible to predict what will set him off.
Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district's most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can't function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.
The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, "Look, Mom, I'm really sorry. Can I have video games back today?"
"No way," I told him. "You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly."
His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. "Then I'm going to kill myself," he said. "I'm going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself."
That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.
"Where are you taking me?" he said, suddenly worried. "Where are we going?"
"You know where we are going," I replied.
"No! You can't do that to me! You're sending me to hell! You're sending me straight to hell!"
I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. "Call the police," I said. "Hurry."
Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn't escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I'm still stronger than he is, but I won't be for much longer.
The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork-"Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…"
At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You'll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.
For days, my son insisted that I was lying-that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, "I hate you. And I'm going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here."
By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I've heard those promises for years. I don't believe them anymore.
On the intake form, under the question, "What are your expectations for treatment?" I wrote, "I need help."
And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.
I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys-and their mothers-need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness.
According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 m**** murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.
When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. "If he's back in the system, they'll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the only way you're ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you've got charges."
I don't believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael's sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn't deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise-in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.
With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill-Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation's largest treatment centers in 2011.
No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, "Something must be done."
I agree that something must be done. It's time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That's the only way our nation can ever truly heal.
God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.
liza long is an author, musician, and erstwhile classicist. she is also a single mother of four bright, loved children, one of whom has special needs.
Republished with permission from the Blue Review, a non-profit publication affiliated with Boise State University that publishes a mix of scholarly essays and journalism. The original post can be found here.
Exactly.
Nothing like passing bills to make millions of Americans instant criminals.
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