How about we ban the type of people doing the shooting

[Section31]

I find it ironic that the people that are so willing to discuss removing our rights to bear arms don't ever mention reducing our tolerance for the types of people doing the killing. Without going too deep into that subject, I'd think that would be the better place to start. Kids are told to express themselves anyway they want these days, look and act anyway you want, take no responsibility for your actions and then expect them to somehow realize "not that far" on their own.

Kids threaten teachers and get a three or four day suspension. How bout a trip to juvie? Until we get back to punishing poor behavior, I believe we will continue to see these types of horrific tragedies.

I think we're taking the wrong approach to this problem.

[kssooner]

I find it ironic that the people that are so willing to discuss removing our rights to bear arms don't ever mention reducing our tolerance for the types of people doing the killing. Without going too deep into that subject, I'd think that would be the better place to start. Kids are told to express themselves anyway they want these days, look and act anyway you want, take no responsibility for your actions and then expect them to somehow realize "not that far" on their own.

Kids threaten teachers and get a three or four day suspension. How bout a trip to juvie? Until we get back to punishing poor behavior, I believe we will continue to see these types of horrific tragedies.

I think we're taking the wrong approach to this problem.

The leaders of this country seem to take the wrong approach to everything they do. This will be no different.

[Sinatra]

I find it ironic that the people that are so willing to discuss removing our rights to bear arms

Who of relevance is discussing the possibility of removing your right to bear arms?

[soonerintn]

Impossible to identify and successfully treat the people who do this. It's not like they all would go volunteer for help.

A very simplified thing that I learned in psych, 1/3 get better, 1/3 get worse and 1/3 stay the same. So, even if you do identify them, you probably aren't going to treat them.

To me, it isn't just the mental make up of the individual, but society as a whole. We glorify violence in tv and video games. We punish success. We ostracize those that are different. We have a president that divides the nation and speaks horribly about parts of our country.

We are no longer a country that has a goal to be a great nation. We are no longer united. We are a bunch of marginalized groups or individuals and when somebody or some group feels completely lost and without hope, we get a m**** killing.

[usaosooner]

Other country's are exposed to same violent media Americans are exposed to. The difference is limited access to weapons and more access to health care. Address those two issues and a bunch of this **** stops ( not that it'll never truly end)

[Section31]

Impossible to identify and successfully treat the people who do this. It's not like they all would go volunteer for help.

A very simplified thing that I learned in psych, 1/3 get better, 1/3 get worse and 1/3 stay the same. So, even if you do identify them, you probably aren't going to treat them.

To me, it isn't just the mental make up of the individual, but society as a whole. We glorify violence in tv and video games. We punish success. We ostracize those that are different. We have a president that divides the nation and speaks horribly about parts of our country.

We are no longer a country that has a goal to be a great nation. We are no longer united. We are a bunch of marginalized groups or individuals and when somebody or some group feels completely lost and without hope, we get a m**** killing.

You're missing my point. Look, we're all being pressed to "tolerate" everyone regardless of how obviously goofy they act. We encourage kids to dress and act however they want, but when kids their age point out ridiculously stupid they look/act, we punish THOSE kids for bullying. How about we teach kids that you get what give. You don't have to conform to all of MY definition of what acceptable is, but you better be prepared to get the response you're obviously fishing for without getting much ****istance from society. EVERYONE knows EXACTLY what I'm talking about...you can try and twist it anyway you want, but the same exact "kids" are committing these crimes over and over and they fit that goofy, "misunderstood" type.

How about their parents tell them the truth. If you don't TRY and fit a little bit, you're ostracizing yourself. The problem is, those same parents are the ones who are creating most of the problem.

As for your supposition that kids are being ostracized now...I'm not sure where you live, but all you need to do is read the news and spend a day listening to someone define two boys fighting for no other reason than they got mad at each other as "one of them was bullying the other". The more we've attempted to make all kids feel "special", the more violence seems to occur. When kids were settling things with their fists "back in the day", no one was shooting up entire 1st grade classrooms.

[Section31]

BTW, it's not how a kid acts or dresses, but WHY they do it. They do it for attention and/or they have "issues". If a kid makes questionable comments, looks and dresses in a manner that's OBVIOUSLY an attempt to rebel (we can quit acting like we don't know EXACTLY what that looks like now, I think), then let's friggin take it seriously. Get them into a mental treatment facility and take it from there. If NORMAL kids start seeing this, they won't tend to be quite so rebellious IMO. Parents will take control of their kids and we won't have to spend so much time making provisions for their planned behavior.

Seems we spend more time defending people that are the problem instead of taking care of the problem THEY have. If it's truly a mental condition (and I know MANY have mental conditions), then let's get them help. If it's disrespectful little ****holes, let's get them into a friggin juvenile detention center and teach them some friggin manners.

[Sooner5030]

we should start a pre-crime division at the local, state and federal levels........we could do studies on what types of behaviors are likely to result in m**** shootings and then prevent those people exercising their rights. This would solve our UE problem as we'd have to hire a shiat ton of government workers. Who cares about rights and freedoms anyway?....what we need is more security...mostly to save us from ourselves. The only reason intervention has not worked so far is we just havent tried hard enough or wasted enough resources.

/just kidding

I'll take me some freedom over security in this situation. F the Statist and Interventionist.

[Troker]

we can quit acting like we don't know EXACTLY what that looks like now, I think)

Nope - I would like for you to explain to me what you think a potential spree killer looks like. Go on.

Also, you never answered Sinatra's question. He may be on his list of people you ignore because they disagree with you, though.

[McRib]

Wow, this thread.

[Troker]

- I'd think this would be a thread you'd be chomping at the bit to weigh in on.

[Troker]

Wow, this thread.

****ing jinx.

[McRib]

- I'd think this would be a thread you'd be chomping at the bit to weigh in on.

I'm collecting my thoughts...

[Section31]

Nope - I would like for you to explain to me what you think a potential spree killer looks like. Go on.

Also, you never answered Sinatra's question. He may be on his list of people you ignore because they disagree with you, though.

I see. Instead of discussing what you guys KNOW I'm talking about, you'd rather split hairs on semantics. With that in mind...

I find it ironic that the people that are so willing to discuss MODIFYING our rights to bear arms...include/exclude the flavor of the month, etc.

Like I said, we (you guys) have no problem RESTRICTING my right to buy a gun that I use for sporting or simply to shoot at my leisure like 99% of all gun owners do in lieu of doing a little **** kicking of the rebellious moron or getting a person medical help. But, you guys just keep telling yourself it's a gun problem.

Can someone remind me what caliber of gun was used to kill all those kids in the Murrah Building again?

It's not a weapons issue...it's a behavioral issue...spend some time around your local high/middle school and you will soon understand what I'm talking about.

[87sooner]

I find it ironic that the people that are so willing to discuss removing our rights to bear arms don't ever mention reducing our tolerance for the types of people doing the killing. Without going too deep into that subject, I'd think that would be the better place to start. Kids are told to express themselves anyway they want these days, look and act anyway you want, take no responsibility for your actions and then expect them to somehow realize "not that far" on their own.

Kids threaten teachers and get a three or four day suspension. How bout a trip to juvie? Until we get back to punishing poor behavior, I believe we will continue to see these types of horrific tragedies.

I think we're taking the wrong approach to this problem.

you're barking up the wrong tree...
was this kid a trouble maker?
sounds to me like he was a quiet loner type ..
prolly never bothered anyone until he went overboard...

[Troker]

I see. Instead of discussing what you guys KNOW I'm talking about, you'd rather split hairs on semantics. With that in mind...

I find it ironic that the people that are so willing to discuss MODIFYING our rights to bear arms...include/exclude the flavor of the month, etc.

Like I said, we (you guys) have no problem RESTRICTING my right to buy a gun that I use for sporting or simply to shoot at my leisure like 99% of all gun owners do in lieu of doing a little **** kicking of the rebellious moron or getting a person medical help. But, you guys just keep telling yourself it's a gun problem.

Can someone remind me what caliber of gun was used to kill all those kids in the Murrah Building again?

It's not a weapons issue...it's a behavioral issue...spend some time around your local high/middle school and you will soon understand what I'm talking about.

you're barking up the wrong tree...
was this kid a trouble maker?
sounds to me like he was a quiet loner type ..
prolly never bothered anyone until he went overboard...

That awkward moment when 87sooner makes you look dumb.

Also - Find a post of mine advocating for gun control of any sort. One. ****ing. Post.

[Section31]

you're barking up the wrong tree...
was this kid a trouble maker?
sounds to me like he was a quiet loner type ..
prolly never bothered anyone until he went overboard...

EVERYONE interviewed said he was strange. Strange can mean many things, but when HS students say strange, it ought to be obvious. Hell, his mom told people he had a problem, his uncle said he had behavioral problems, etc, etc. Instead, they allow him to stay around "normal" kids without treatment. The kid needed help. Instead, mom probably told him everyone else was weird and they were just being mean to him. She was, more than likely, in denial.

All you hear (and have heard over and over again) is, these people RARELY just "snap". When these incidents are investigated, they show a distinct pattern or in many cases tell someone what they plan to do.

Instead, it seems we spend more time trying to make them fit in and feel special. I WANT THEM TO GET HELP.

[Section31]

That awkward moment when 87sooner makes you look dumb.

Also - Find a post of mine advocating for gun control of any sort. One. ****ing. Post.

How does that make me look dumb? Because 87 (and maybe you) don't want to recognize that most of these kids fit the same old quiet, strange, goth, dark, roll-playing gamer type for fear of being "too judgmental"???

Then why did you bring up Sinatra's post? Just being an **** or just trying to help Sinatra out????

[Section31]

Anyway...that's my vent. I'm done with it...just had to get it off my chest.

[oucub23]

Hmm. Politicians are talking about gun control and you arm a nuke on here.

[Section31]

Hmm. Politicians are talking about gun control and you arm a nuke on here.

Sorry brother. I just hate when people start trying to put a bandaid on an issue instead of fixing the ROOT of the problem.

[Troker]

How does that make me look dumb? Because 87 (and maybe you) don't want to recognize that most of these kids fit the same old quiet, strange, goth, dark, roll-playing gamer type for fear of being "too judgmental"???

Then why did you bring up Sinatra's post? Just being an **** or just trying to help Sinatra out????

I don't give a **** about being judgmental about sociopaths, I don't like it when people with zero formal education make broad **** ****ertions when they don't know what they're talking about. You'll notice that the only person involved in this thread that knows what the hell they're talking about disagrees with you so vehemently she has to "collect her thoughts"?

I brought up Sinatra's post because if you're gonna start a thread with a controversial ****ertion, you should be prepared to talk about it. When you ignore people who disagree with you (**ahem** ignore list) you turn this place into more of an echo chamber than it already is.

[oucub23]

I don't give a **** about being judgmental about sociopaths, I don't like it when people with zero formal education make broad **** ****ertions when they don't know what they're talking about. You'll notice that the only person involved in this thread that knows what the hell they're talking about disagrees with you so vehemently she has to "collect her thoughts"?

I brought up Sinatra's post because if you're gonna start a thread with a controversial ****ertion, you should be prepared to talk about it. When you ignore people who disagree with you (**ahem** ignore list) you turn this place into more of an echo chamber than it already is.

The problem with the thread isn't that he's completely wrong. If he was the response would be easy.

[Section31]

I don't give a **** about being judgmental about sociopaths, I don't like it when people with zero formal education make broad **** ****ertions when they don't know what they're talking about. You'll notice that the only person involved in this thread that knows what the hell they're talking about disagrees with you so vehemently she has to "collect her thoughts"?

I brought up Sinatra's post because if you're gonna start a thread with a controversial ****ertion, you should be prepared to talk about it. When you ignore people who disagree with you (**ahem** ignore list) you turn this place into more of an echo chamber than it already is.

No, I'm not ignoring you. I think you're making ****umptions about exactly what I'm saying.

Think about it this way. There are people who have no problem taking away mine (and your) right to have any gun we want for fear of infringing on other people's rights to act like full out weirdos. My point is, neither, in and of themselves, are illegal nor should be. The problem I have is, we don't seem to want to get to the root of the issue...IMO, it's not guns.

I want people with mental illnesses to get help, and I want morons to get their ****es kicked.

[Section31]

The problem with the thread isn't that he's completely wrong. If he was the response would be easy.

I think the biggest problem people have with what I'm trying to discuss is it's not PC to say it that way. I OBVIOUSLY don't have all the answers and don't claim to, but I'm certainly not afraid to point out some obvious similarities to many of these guys.

[oucub23]

You're staggeringly hamfisted in your presentation too. I ****ume part of that is intended.

[Section31]

You're staggeringly hamfisted in your presentation too. I ****ume part of that is intended.

Yep. I'm pissed.

[soonerintn]

You're missing my point. Look, we're all being pressed to "tolerate" everyone regardless of how obviously goofy they act. We encourage kids to dress and act however they want, but when kids their age point out ridiculously stupid they look/act, we punish THOSE kids for bullying. How about we teach kids that you get what give. You don't have to conform to all of MY definition of what acceptable is, but you better be prepared to get the response you're obviously fishing for without getting much ****istance from society. EVERYONE knows EXACTLY what I'm talking about...you can try and twist it anyway you want, but the same exact "kids" are committing these crimes over and over and they fit that goofy, "misunderstood" type.

How about their parents tell them the truth. If you don't TRY and fit a little bit, you're ostracizing yourself. The problem is, those same parents are the ones who are creating most of the problem.

As for your supposition that kids are being ostracized now...I'm not sure where you live, but all you need to do is read the news and spend a day listening to someone define two boys fighting for no other reason than they got mad at each other as "one of them was bullying the other". The more we've attempted to make all kids feel "special", the more violence seems to occur. When kids were settling things with their fists "back in the day", no one was shooting up entire 1st grade classrooms.

. There are kids out there with "silent disabilities". Often times, those kids never get diagnosed. They go through school as the weird kid. They get picked on, etc until they explode.

Case in point, my sons school doesn't have a football team. If they want to play, they have to travel after school to another school in the county to play. One kid, whose dad played for vanderbilt, was traveling and playing. He has aspergers. He doesn't publicize it and he acts awkward. Other players and even the coaches were referring to him as the ****. Another kid that travels, heard the conversation and confronted the coaches. Not saying that it would happen, but ****ume the other classmate wasn't there to explain aspergers to the coaches and players. That is a situation that could have exploded.

We do, as a society, have the tendency to overreact. I get your point. My point is, though, that we have sub segments of society that are being flamed into violence.

Obama keeps harping on the 1 or 2 percent to the point that the majority of folks want to punish them. What if he just harped on punishing Oklahoma? It is 1 of 50 states and 2% of the union. At some point Oklahoma would have to defend itself.

We have supposed black leaders fanning the flames of racism. Instead of looking for a united solution, we have factions fanning the flames and looking to punish others.

[87sooner]

EVERYONE interviewed said he was strange. Strange can mean many things, but when HS students say strange, it ought to be obvious. Hell, his mom told people he had a problem, his uncle said he had behavioral problems, etc, etc. Instead, they allow him to stay around "normal" kids without treatment. The kid needed help. Instead, mom probably told him everyone else was weird and they were just being mean to him. She was, more than likely, in denial.

All you hear (and have heard over and over again) is, these people RARELY just "snap". When these incidents are investigated, they show a distinct pattern or in many cases tell someone what they plan to do.

Instead, it seems we spend more time trying to make them fit in and feel special. I WANT THEM TO GET HELP.

your initial post talked about sending them to "juvie"....

i happen to have great compassion (and sadness) for a 20 year old kid that somehow got to a point where his best idea was to kill as many kids as he could....
i can't imagine what his life was like that led to that idea...
and i can't imagine what it would have taken to put him on a different path....
but suggesting "juvie" for troublemakers as a solution to m**** killings is even more idiotic than those suggesting gun control...

[Troker]

So what is your plan for identifying and handling those troubled goths and RPG players who apparently are predestined to murder people?

[Section31]

. There are kids out there with "silent disabilities". Often times, those kids never get diagnosed. They go through school as the weird kid. They get picked on, etc until they explode.

Case in point, my sons school doesn't have a football team. If they want to play, they have to travel after school to another school in the county to play. One kid, whose dad played for vanderbilt, was traveling and playing. He has aspergers. He doesn't publicize it and he acts awkward. Other players and even the coaches were referring to him as the ****. Another kid that travels, heard the conversation and confronted the coaches. Not saying that it would happen, but ****ume the other classmate wasn't there to explain aspergers to the coaches and players. That is a situation that could have exploded.

We do, as a society, have the tendency to overreact. I get your point. My point is, though, that we have sub segments of society that are being flamed into violence.

Obama keeps harping on the 1 or 2 percent to the point that the majority of folks want to punish them. What if he just harped on punishing Oklahoma? It is 1 of 50 states and 2% of the union. At some point Oklahoma would have to defend itself.

We have supposed black leaders fanning the flames of racism. Instead of looking for a united solution, we have factions fanning the flames and looking to punish others.

I hear ya, brother. Like cub said, I didn't come off well about it, but I am pissed and I think you get my gist. If a kid has a mental disability, let's get the kid help. It might mean he has to go to a school where they are trained to handle his/her type of disability. All kids are meant to go to a public school.

Not all the perpetrators of these types of crimes have had mental disabilities (at least not medically recognized - I think we can all agree they have mental issues), but most all of them fit a certain number of shared characteristics. One or two of the characteristics by themselves is not an issue, but when you combine many of them, there should be some red flags and some sort of action.

[Section31]

your initial post talked about sending them to "juvie"....

i happen to have great compassion (and sadness) for a 20 year old kid that somehow got to a point where his best idea was to kill as many kids as he could....
i can't imagine what his life was like that led to that idea...
and i can't imagine what it would have taken to put him on a different path....
but suggesting "juvie" for troublemakers as a solution to m**** killings is even more idiotic than those suggesting gun control...

Reread the post where I referenced "juvie". It was about threatening a teacher.

[McRib]

31, you're a goober. You think if a high school student thinks a kid is weird then there's definitely something wrong? How much time do you spend with high school kids? How many high schools do you frequent? A kid doesn't have to be actually weird (whatever that is) to incur the wrath of his classmates. Yeah, a kid with AS is probably gonna get at some flack, but if you took every kid's word for who is the odd duck at the school, you'll have the same effect as LT posters tryna pick the best avatar - a huge tie of 1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1... Most of the things teens do is conformity (they even conform in their nonconformity). They're in conflict - figuring out who they are and how they fit into their world and The World, all the while being flogged by the media's idea of what a woman should look like/think/be/do, and the same for man, ridiculous "reality" television glorifying poor decisions, and society that seems to thrive on instant gratification... And finding their niche. If they are appropriately guided trough this, encouraged to explore their identity and given a secure base on which to lean, hopefully they make it around the bend with a pretty good sense of independence, self and security. If they have ongoing mental health issues or a pervasive developmental disorder or even some sort of physical disability, etc, they need extra support and encouragement and guidance in order to reach the level of their peers. And teens are soooo striving for identity, part of that is shunning those who do not fit into a mold - putting others down to bring themselves up happens all the time (the realization that this does NOT work comes from maturity), some kids just cannot tell you why a kid is "weird" other than that the kid is different.

I don't know how to fix the problem of our violent society. I even told someone the other day that I didn't like a video game because I couldn't blow anything up, and frequently see movies based on the number of explosions on the previews. But I do know teens. And instead of labeling them as potential spree killers or thugs or whatever, how about we listen more to them, let them tell us what they need and what will help them succeed, and actually make SUCCEEDING in life a good thing, rather than making a name for yourself as a teen mom or fat**** redneck dance mom? A kid told me once he hated his new family because it was boring. I asked him to explain "boring" to me. He said, "ya know, boring... the cops never come, no one fights...". That.

Sorry this is so long. And sorry I called you a goober.

[Section31]

So what is your plan for identifying and handling those troubled goths and RPG players who apparently are predestined to murder people?

Again, there are teachers/professionals around these kids ALL OF THE TIME. They have a good understanding of what signs indicate a person needs "attention" - medical or otherwise.

You make it sound like we should wait for them to to murder someone before making the determination that the characteristics they choose (in many instances) to display is OK. I say BS. I realize profiling is not popular, but I've reached my whits end on this deal. When we were in school, we didn't have any rights. We went to school to learn. If we acted stupid, we were told to get our stuff together or we'd be meeting the principal. Kids today just laugh at teachers for making that threat.

[87sooner]

I hear ya, brother. Like cub said, I didn't come off well about it, but I am pissed and I think you get my gist. If a kid has a mental disability, let's get the kid help. It might mean he has to go to a school where they are trained to handle his/her type of disability. All kids are meant to go to a public school.

Not all the perpetrators of these types of crimes have had mental disabilities (at least not medically recognized - I think we can all agree they have mental issues), but most all of them fit a certain number of shared characteristics. One or two of the characteristics by themselves is not an issue, but when you combine many of them, there should be some red flags and some sort of action.

i would be willing to bet most of these people have absolutely no "mental disabilities"....
they have nothing wrong other than they are short or skinny or they look different or their hair looks different....or maybe they just have dumbazz parents
and then years of not being able to deal with feeling different....
how are you going to get society to stop idolizing beauty and devaluing those who look/act differently?

[87sooner]

Reread the post where I referenced "juvie". It was about threatening a teacher.

and you have no evidence ANY m**** killer "threatened a teacher" as a kid.....

[Section31]

31, you're a goober. You think if a high school student thinks a kid is weird then there's definitely something wrong? How much time do you spend with high school kids? How many high schools do you frequent? A kid doesn't have to be actually weird (whatever that is) to incur the wrath of his classmates. Yeah, a kid with AS is probably gonna get at some flack, but if you took every kid's word for who is the odd duck at the school, you'll have the same effect as LT posters tryna pick the best avatar - a huge tie of 1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1... Most of the things teens do is conformity (they even conform in their nonconformity). They're in conflict - figuring out who they are and how they fit into their world and The World, all the while being flogged by the media's idea of what a woman should look like/think/be/do, and the same for man, ridiculous "reality" television glorifying poor decisions, and society that seems to thrive on instant gratification... And finding their niche. If they are appropriately guided trough this, encouraged to explore their identity and given a secure base on which to lean, hopefully they make it around the bend with a pretty good sense of independence, self and security. If they have ongoing mental health issues or a pervasive developmental disorder or even some sort of physical disability, etc, they need extra support and encouragement and guidance in order to reach the level of their peers. And teens are soooo striving for identity, part of that is shunning those who do not fit into a mold - putting others down to bring themselves up happens all the time (the realization that this does NOT work comes from maturity), some kids just cannot tell you why a kid is "weird" other than that the kid is different.

I don't know how to fix the problem of our violent society. I even told someone the other day that I didn't like a video game because I couldn't blow anything up, and frequently see movies based on the number of explosions on the previews. But I do know teens. And instead of labeling them as potential spree killers or thugs or whatever, how about we listen more to them, let them tell us what they need and what will help them succeed, and actually make SUCCEEDING in life a good thing, rather than making a name for yourself as a teen mom or fat**** redneck dance mom? A kid told me once he hated his new family because it was boring. I asked him to explain "boring" to me. He said, "ya know, boring... the cops never come, no one fights...". That.

Sorry this is so long. And sorry I called you a goober.

And I don't disagree with anything you said. I think you're making the ****umption that I'm talking about some kid that has pink hair or wears black fingernail polish. I'm not doing that. I'm taking the totality of how many of these kids act - and I've been around a TON. Only a couple of different schools (HS/mid-high), but MOST the trouble-makers in most schools (as defined by their number of trips to the office) are EASILY picked out in about an afternoon in a school lunch room, so to say our educators don't have a pretty good idea who's in need of ****istance would be naive. Are there kids that slip through the crack? I'm sure there are/would be.

As for kids with real mental issues, I'm not sure they need to be in public school either. They need an entire staff trained to help them learn and "fit in". I'm not sure the guy who teaches history and coaches wrestling is an ideal candidate for that.

I guess my point is, if you don't make giant ****umptions that I'm talking about the average kid that just acts out a little bit, then you'd see that I'm merely making an observation after spending time in schools myself and raising two kids to HS/college age. I know it's not the popular opinion, but it's mine.

Oh, and since you're name-calling, you're a dumb blonde...I kid...

[Section31]

and you have no evidence ANY m**** killer "threatened a teacher" as a kid.....

I never said I did. Good grief. You just like to argue don't you?

[87sooner]

half the country is legally medicated.....and half of the other half is illegally medicated...and they're all raising kids..
and people wonder what the problem is.....

[McRib]

And I don't disagree with anything you said. I think you're making the ****umption that I'm talking about some kid that has pink hair or wears black fingernail polish. I'm not doing that. I'm taking the totality of how many of these kids act - and I've been around a TON. Only a couple of different schools (HS/mid-high), but MOST the trouble-makers in most schools (as defined by their number of trips to the office) are EASILY picked out in about an afternoon in a school lunch room, so to say our educators don't have a pretty good idea who's in need of ****istance would be naive. Are there kids that slip through the crack? I'm sure there are/would be.

As for kids with real mental issues, I'm not sure they need to be in public school either. They need an entire staff trained to help them learn and "fit in". I'm not sure the guy who teaches history and coaches wrestling is an ideal candidate for that.

I guess my point is, if you don't make giant ****umptions that I'm talking about the average kid that just acts out a little bit, then you'd see that I'm merely making an observation after spending time in schools myself and raising two kids to HS/college age. I know it's not the popular opinion, but it's mine.

Oh, and since you're name-calling, you're a dumb blonde...I kid...

Yeah, no, I'm not talking about the kid down the hall and her silly friends. I'm talking about kids I work with, none of whom are remotely average. And kids/schools now are dramatically different than they were 5 years ago. It's a different world.

And now I'm ready for you to tell me why "real mental issues" are...

(I'm goin to bed so I can be old tomorrow. Take your time.)

[Section31]

Yeah, no, I'm not talking about the kid down the hall and her silly friends. I'm talking about kids I work with, none of whom are remotely average. And kids/schools now are dramatically different than they were 5 years ago. It's a different world.

I hear ya. I don't claim to see all you've seen, but you know what I'm talking about. It seems the schools are required to conform to the kids rather than the kids conform to the schools any more. I may not have as many or as "good" (bad) of stories as you do, but I could still tell some doozies...

[Section31]

half the country is legally medicated.....and half of the other half is illegally medicated...and they're all raising kids..
and people wonder what the problem is.....

I'm with ya on this.

[ltsooner]

What I took from 31's rant is that in a very general sense, educators -- through their experience -- might be able to ****ume that a kid is vulnerable because of being picked on and perhaps capable of lashing back in a violent way. Furthermore, if I understand his rant correctly, those kids who do get picked on are frequently Goth, Emo or some other kind of non-conformist faction.

I suppose there is a point there because, if those are the kinds of kids who get picked on the most there are more of them who might be more likely to find a way to get even. Numbers.

I'm talking in circles a bit. But while I agree with the premise, there are no concrete rules and there are always exceptions. So, as much as possible, educators should be trained to keep an eye out for students who could use some professional help before a situation boils over into violence... regardless of what clique they're in or how they dress.

Also, in regards to the "juvie" comment ... it's not like being sent to a juvenile facility is a life sentence. They're going to get out at 18 or 21. Accordingly, the entire structure of a facility like that is rehabilitative in nature (with the exception of security, of course). That may be looking at it through rose-colored glasses, but that is the intent anyway. Indeed, there are those kids who come out meaner and will re-offend and find themsevles in the adult system in no time.

[Section31]

What I took from 31's rant is that in a very general sense, educators -- through their experience -- might be able to ****ume that a kid is vulnerable because of being picked on and perhaps capable of lashing back in a violent way. Furthermore, if I understand his rant correctly, those kids who do get picked on are frequently Goth, Emo or some other kind of non-conformist faction.

I suppose there is a point there because, if those are the kinds of kids who get picked on the most there are more of them who might be more likely to find a way to get even. Numbers.

I'm talking in circles a bit. But while I agree with the premise, there are no concrete rules and there are always exceptions. So, as much as possible, educators should be trained to keep an eye out for students who could use some professional help before a situation boils over into violence... regardless of what clique they're in or how they dress.

Also, in regards to the "juvie" comment ... it's not like being sent to a juvenile facility is a life sentence. They're going to get out at 18 or 21. Accordingly, the entire structure of a facility like that is rehabilitative in nature (with the exception of security, of course). That may be looking at it through rose-colored glasses, but that is the intent anyway. Indeed, there are those kids who come out meaner and will re-offend and find themsevles in the adult system in no time.

I'm not sure ALL of these kids were picked on. I'm sure some were. I've not heard that this kid was.

I'm a bit old school in that I wish they'd require school uniforms. I'm not sure when it became all the rage for school to be a place to express one's good or bad fashion sense...not that I don't like a little fashion myself.

[soonerintn]

What I took from 31's rant is that in a very general sense, educators -- through their experience -- might be able to ****ume that a kid is vulnerable because of being picked on and perhaps capable of lashing back in a violent way. Furthermore, if I understand his rant correctly, those kids who do get picked on are frequently Goth, Emo or some other kind of non-conformist faction.

I suppose there is a point there because, if those are the kinds of kids who get picked on the most there are more of them who might be more likely to find a way to get even. Numbers.

I'm talking in circles a bit. But while I agree with the premise, there are no concrete rules and there are always exceptions. So, as much as possible, educators should be trained to keep an eye out for students who could use some professional help before a situation boils over into violence... regardless of what clique they're in or how they dress.

Also, in regards to the "juvie" comment ... it's not like being sent to a juvenile facility is a life sentence. They're going to get out at 18 or 21. Accordingly, the entire structure of a facility like that is rehabilitative in nature (with the exception of security, of course). That may be looking at it through rose-colored glasses, but that is the intent anyway. Indeed, there are those kids who come out meaner and will re-offend and find themsevles in the adult system in no time.

It is a fine line in asking teachers to identify at risk kids. I'm sure some have a good idea about who will succeed or fail in school, but not necessarily who is troubled. Then you place the teacher or school in line for a lawsuit for labeling a kid as troubled.
Kids have to take all sorts of tests. Maybe require a mmpi test for high school kids. You have to p**** it to be eligible for a drivers license or something.

[Section31]

It is a fine line in asking teachers to identify at risk kids. I'm sure some have a good idea about who will succeed or fail in school, but not necessarily who is troubled. Then you place the teacher or school in line for a lawsuit for labeling a kid as troubled.
Kids have to take all sorts of tests. Maybe require a mmpi test for high school kids. You have to p**** it to be eligible for a drivers license or something.

And now you've come full circle on what I was kind of getting at.

When will we quit using our court system to punish someone who's TRYING to help us?

BTW, I'm not saying you're wrong (you're actually right about the lawsuits) and that all lawsuits are frivolous, but sheesh...

[TIMB0B]

As for your supposition that kids are being ostracized now...I'm not sure where you live, but all you need to do is read the news and spend a day listening to someone define two boys fighting for no other reason than they got mad at each other as "one of them was bullying the other". The more we've attempted to make all kids feel "special", the more violence seems to occur. When kids were settling things with their fists "back in the day", no one was shooting up entire 1st grade classrooms.

[Fahooglegods]

Other country's are exposed to same violent media Americans are exposed to. The difference is limited access to weapons and more access to health care. Address those two issues and a bunch of this **** stops ( not that it'll never truly end)

Or you could move to Great Britain, Germany, or France. Delta is always ready when you are.

[OUMallen]

I find it ironic that the people that are so willing to discuss removing our rights to bear arms don't ever mention reducing our tolerance for the types of people doing the killing. Without going too deep into that subject, I'd think that would be the better place to start. Kids are told to express themselves anyway they want these days, look and act anyway you want, take no responsibility for your actions and then expect them to somehow realize "not that far" on their own.

Kids threaten teachers and get a three or four day suspension. How bout a trip to juvie? Until we get back to punishing poor behavior, I believe we will continue to see these types of horrific tragedies.

I think we're taking the wrong approach to this problem.

CUE THE CIRCUS MUSIC!!!!!!!!

"Get back" to punishing poor behavior?? Did we USED to send kids to kid JAIL for mouthing off to teachers? Haha let's tell those kids to just stop expressing themselves, and it will all be better!!!

You sad sack, the overwhelming number of perpetrators of these heinous acts have MENTAL PROBLEMS. It's not a discipline issue, you ****. God help us all if you ever get to make decisions that impact others.

[87sooner]

CUE THE CIRCUS MUSIC!!!!!!!!

"Get back" to punishing poor behavior?? Did we USED to send kids to kid JAIL for mouthing off to teachers? Haha let's tell those kids to just stop expressing themselves, and it will all be better!!!

You sad sack, the overwhelming number of perpetrators of these heinous acts have MENTAL PROBLEMS. It's not a discipline issue, you ****. God help us all if you ever get to make decisions that impact others.

what kinds of mental problems? and how did they get them?