The Fall of Rome and the modern welfare state

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  1. #1
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    The Fall of Rome and the modern welfare state


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    It's seriously eerie comparing what happened in Rome to what is slowly happening now. Rome was a much more advanced society than anyone we had before it, and in many ways we are the same way now But it's slowly falling apart the same way Rome did because there just isn't the money to sustain a welfare/warfare state.

  3. #3

    The Fall of Rome and the modern welfare state

    The comparisons between the US and Rome are greatly exaggerated.
    Empires rise and fall because that's the ****ing nature of life.

    If we did everything ron Paul said, and drank up his blood so his dna would become ours, we still couldn't stop this country from going downhill. Because that's the nature of life.
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    Originally Posted by TenYards View Post
    The comparisons between the US and Rome are greatly exaggerated.
    Empires rise and fall because that's the ****ing nature of life.

    If we did everything ron Paul said, and drank up his blood so his dna would become ours, we still couldn't stop this country from going downhill. Because that's the nature of life.
    Worshiping one guy no matter how great he is has nothing to do with this. In fact it's the opposite of what the Ron Paul's of the world want. We need to be a society that cares about self reliance and work not on getting something from the evil and corrupt force that is government.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by TenYards View Post
    The comparisons between the US and Rome are greatly exaggerated.
    Empires rise and fall because that's the ****ing nature of life.

    If we did everything ron Paul said, and drank up his blood so his dna would become ours, we still couldn't stop this country from going downhill. Because that's the nature of life.
    it's the nature of govt....those making decisions for the rest of us...
    greed....corruption....it permeates every system of govt.....and eventually.....requires a massive reset

  6. #6

    The Fall of Rome and the modern welfare state

    Originally Posted by SoonerLibertarian View Post
    Worshiping one guy no matter how great he is has nothing to do with this. In fact it's the opposite of what the Ron Paul's of the world want. We need to be a society that cares about self reliance and work not on getting something from the evil and corrupt force that is government.
    Yeah yeah, that will save us. You got it. If only everybody was self reliant like you and infringed copyright laws on youtube, then this country would just rise and rise and riiiiiiise like Bruce Wayne from that prison in The Dark Knight.

    Because if there's something that's helping the producers to be self-reliant is the fact that people put their work on youtube for free.

    Things rise and then they fall. Welcome
    to human history.

  7. #7

    The Fall of Rome and the modern welfare state

    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    it's the nature of govt....those making decisions for the rest of us...
    greed....corruption....it permeates every system of govt.....and eventually.....requires a massive reset
    You people talk of government if it were a Chinese toy laced with led, and we are being fisted by it. Government is us. Government is your uncle, your dad, your friend, that jock that ****ed your high school sweetheart. Government is made up of people, and people are ****s. Libertarians are people.

  8. #8

    Couldn't make it though the video as it is woefully ignorant of Roman history. Do yourself a favor and skip it. Spend the time searching Youtube for Dr. Fears "Famous Romans" videos.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by SoonerLibertarian View Post
    It's seriously eerie comparing what happened in Rome to what is slowly happening now. Rome was a much more advanced society than anyone we had before it, and in many ways we are the same way now But it's slowly falling apart the same way Rome did because there just isn't the money to sustain a welfare/warfare state.
    You know historical comparisons are horriblly inaccurate, right? The corcumstances surrounding each individual period cant ever be the same. And the term "history repeats itself" eats me up inside everytime I hear it(coming from a historian though).

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    Originally Posted by TenYards View Post
    You people talk of government if it were a Chinese toy laced with led, and we are being fisted by it. Government is us. Government is your uncle, your dad, your friend, that jock that ****ed your high school sweetheart. Government is made up a of people, and people are ****s. Libertarians are people.
    No any government is an oppressive force that has to take from the individual to go towards a collective. Any government should be looked as offensive to the individual.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by SoonerLibertarian View Post
    No any government is an oppressive force that has to take from the individual to go towards a collective. Any government should be looked as offensive to the individual.
    Saying that from a position and point of view formed by said government you despise. And it's not the government, the term "modern state" is more accurate. Government assumes agency, and typically the actions of the modern state is agentless.

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    Originally Posted by party1234 View Post
    You know historical comparisons are horriblly inaccurate, right? The corcumstances surrounding each individual period cant ever be the same. And the term "history repeats itself" eats me up inside everytime I hear it(coming from a historian though).
    Is it completely accurate? No because you are right that situations aren't 100% the same. But it doesn't take historians to know that government growth is bad for all civil, and individual rights.

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    Originally Posted by party1234 View Post
    Saying that from a position and point of view formed by said government you despise. And it's not the government, the term "modern state" is more accurate. Government assumes agency, and typically the actions of the modern state is agentless.
    The US government is statist. Not really any difference.

  14. #14

    The Fall of Rome and the modern welfare state

    Originally Posted by SoonerLibertarian View Post
    Is it completely accurate? No because you are right that situations aren't 100% the same. But it doesn't take historians to know that government growth is bad for all civil, and individual rights.
    Not that you listen to reason, but growth of government under Lincoln freed the ****ing slaves. I consider that a good for all civil and individual rights.

    But I digress, let's all hop on that imaginary libertarian train that takes us to the land of rise, where economic problems, wars and disease are cured by Ron Paul's jizz.

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    Originally Posted by SoonerLibertarian View Post
    Is it completely accurate? No because you are right that situations aren't 100% the same. But it doesn't take historians to know that government growth is bad for all civil, and individual rights.
    More civil rights now or 1850?

    More individual rights in our beaurocracy, or in plebian Rome, or in the very small government of the crown in th 12th century?

    Context is everything.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by SoonerLibertarian View Post
    The US government is statist. Not really any difference.
    There's a big difference in the definition I'm using. The modern state involves institutions of control and observation, being agentless is a necessity. No individual action is necessary, the state, the institutions of the state not a individual political entity, is performing all the action. Referring to a specific government removes the agentless aspect. Certain forms of the us government are tenants of the modern state; jails, schools, policing, the military. But the government as a whole is not strictly speaking a modern state in foucaldian terms.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by SoonerLibertarian View Post
    Is it completely accurate? No because you are right that situations aren't 100% the same. But it doesn't take historians to know that government growth is bad for all civil, and individual rights.
    Dude, I'm not arguing that the government is awesome, I'm arguing that you're an idiot for comparing the us to Rome. It's extremely elementary, and extremely incorrect, in any uneducated assumption you can make.
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    Originally Posted by party1234 View Post
    There's a big difference in the definition I'm using. The modern state involves institutions of control and observation, being agentless is a necessity. No individual action is necessary, the state, the institutions of the state not a individual political entity, is performing all the action. Referring to a specific government removes the agentless aspect. Certain forms of the us government are tenants of the modern state; jails, schools, policing, the military. But the government as a whole is not strictly speaking a modern state in foucaldian terms.
    This times a million.

  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by party1234 View Post
    Dude, I'm not arguing that the government is awesome, I'm arguing that you're an idiot for comparing the us to Rome. It's extremely elementary, and extremely incorrect, in any uneducated assumption you can make.
    You can easily compare certain things. The spending for example is really the downfall of both. Our welfare/warfare state are going to fall because the spending level is going to keep going up and the people are going to be too stupid to see it coming because they will keep taking free stuff from a government that has nothing to really give.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by SoonerLibertarian View Post
    You can easily compare certain things. The spending for example is really the downfall of both. Our welfare/warfare state are going to fall because the spending level is going to keep going up and the people are going to be too stupid to see it coming because they will keep taking free stuff from a government that has nothing to really give.
    This is all some simplistic shit you heard on Fox News. What spending level? Spending level is referenced as a comparison to what? Previous spending in the US? Rome? Who are "the people"? What's "it" that's coming? What "free stuff" are people taking? If you're going to try and assemble and argument, actually provide some substance.

  21. #21

    The Fall of Rome and the modern welfare state

    I think people who upload copyrighted videos to YouTube are destroying this country, and enable entertainment welfare.

  22. #22
    Originally Posted by TenYards View Post
    I think people who upload copyrighted videos to YouTube are destroying this country, and enable entertainment welfare.
    It's the government. Like Rome and stuff. With the spending that happens, and the people. It's so true.

  23. #23
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    Fox news, MSNBC, CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC are all the same news network anymore. They all want the wellfare/warfare state to thrive. None of them really tell news anymore or talk about the real issues or talk about what we need to do in getting rid of statism/government.

    The debt is at about 16 trillion dollars that's about 142,000 dollars per tax payer. And this has only basically happened in less than the last century. And a vast majority in the last 60 years or so. And about 11 trillion of it is only the last 12 years. About 8 trillion in the last 5 years. It's not been a republican or democrat problem is both parties. It's at a point where there's no difference in the parties anymore. It's what you want them to spend it on and how quick you want them to spend all the money til there is no more wealth. The democrats probably win there. They will probably run the state into the ground a lot quicker than republicans. But it's not like there's a big difference.

    The welfare/warfare state that our government currently thrives on will fall. You can't pay for it the way we currently have it by just increasing the rolls of people on the dole. More people today are on things like food stamps, more people taking welfare, more people live off the government now than ever before.

  24. #24

    The Fall of Rome and the modern welfare state

    Originally Posted by SoonerLibertarian View Post
    Fox news, MSNBC, CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC are all the same news network anymore. They all want the wellfare/warfare state to thrive. None of them really tell news anymore or talk about the real issues or talk about what we need to do in getting rid of statism/government.

    The debt is at about 16 trillion dollars that's about 142,000 dollars per tax payer. And this has only basically happened in less than the last century. And a vast majority in the last 60 years or so. And about 11 trillion of it is only the last 12 years. About 8 trillion in the last 5 years. It's not been a republican or democrat problem is both parties. It's at a point where there's no difference in the parties anymore. It's what you want them to spend it on and how quick you want them to spend all the money til there is no more wealth. The democrats probably win there. They will probably run the state into the ground a lot quicker than republicans. But it's not like there's a big difference.

    The welfare/warfare state that our government currently thrives on will fall. You can't pay for it the way we currently have it by just increasing the rolls of people on the dole. The supposed affordable health care act which is actually increasing the premiums for health care and the fraud of health care. More people today are on things like food stamps, more people taking welfare, more people live off the government now than ever before.
    Just like ****ing Rome. Amirite? That's what brought Rome down, the monies they owed the Chinese. And that inflation by the Roman Fed....
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  25. #25
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    I think it started going downhill when Rome did away with the foreign language requirement.

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    Originally Posted by SoonerLibertarian View Post
    It's seriously eerie comparing what happened in Rome to what is slowly happening now. Rome was a much more advanced society than anyone we had before it, and in many ways we are the same way now But it's slowly falling apart the same way Rome did because there just isn't the money to sustain a welfare/warfare state.
    Read some Gibbon. There were plenty of contributing factors to the fall of Rome.

  27. #27
    Fox News wants the welfare state to thrive??

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