Who wants to buy some government GM shares????

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  1. #1
    Tundra's Avatar
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    Who wants to buy some government GM shares????

    Going on sale in the coming months.
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...,5307001.story

    The government is going to take a bath on these shares and lose big.

    The deal almost certainly means that the government will lose billions on a $49.5 billion bailout that saved GM from being auctioned off in pieces during the financial crisis in 2008 and 2009. GM's buyback will cut the Treasury's stake to 19 percent from 26.5 percent. For it to break even, Treasury would have to sell the remaining 300 million shares for average of about $70.

  2. #2
    KCRuf/Nek's Avatar
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    I thought GM was all paid back and turning a profit. Guess the election is over, huh?
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  3. #3
    The fraud that was the selling of the success of the GM bailout is the biggest political scam of all time. America is full of idiots to buy this. This was a horrible deal.
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  4. #4
    okie52's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by playmakr View Post
    The fraud that was the selling of the success of the GM bailout is the biggest political scam of all time. America is full of idiots to buy this. This was a horrible deal.
    Lots of union jobs saved though....and future tax exemptees under obamacare. Merry Christmas!!!

  5. #5
    Sancho's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    Lots of union jobs saved though....and future tax exemptees under obamacare. Merry Christmas!!!
    In the end that was all it was about. Obama didnt give a shit about GM, he only wanted to pay back his union goons...with your money.

  6. #6
    KCRuf/Nek's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    In the end that was all it was about. Obama didnt give a shit about GM, he only wanted to pay back his union goons...with your money.
    No sense worrying about people like the actual shareholders that lost their shirts, dealerships that closed, and people down the supply line that lost their jobs. Thank God the pension funds were saved.

  7. #7
    I wonder what the discussion would be if government GM shares were a minority.

    [/OOO]
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  8. #8
    traxx's Avatar
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    I don't understand GM's problems. It's like their mindset is in the 60s and they think "We're GM so we don't have to try." Chrysler is and has always been a mess. Ford looks like the only one of the former Big 3 that's actually trying to be competitive in today's automotive world.

  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by traxx View Post
    I don't understand GM's problems. It's like their mindset is in the 60s and they think "We're GM so we don't have to try." Chrysler is and has always been a mess. Ford looks like the only one of the former Big 3 that's actually trying to be competitive in today's automotive world.
    I remember car shopping in the early 80's. My 1981 Camaro was a piece of shit. Chrysler was making cars where the dome light and cig lighter were options. WTF. That's when I said **** it and bought a BMW.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by traxx View Post
    I don't understand GM's problems. It's like their mindset is in the 60s and they think "We're GM so we don't have to try." Chrysler is and has always been a mess. Ford looks like the only one of the former Big 3 that's actually trying to be competitive in today's automotive world.
    They tended to make bland or butt ugly cars...they seem to be average, at best, in small and mid size drive trains...their V8 is more than capable but is a dying breed...

    Ford could see disaster brewing and did everything possible to overhaul itself...in 2006 they mortgages the entire ****ing company for 18 billion or so...cash up front and lines of credit...if I remember right the 18 bill was more than the value of outstanding stock...talk about piling on debt...

    They also had better relationships with the union...

    Ford did a hell of a job....they were having a hard time keeping their head above water in 2006..they hired Mulally as there CEO....took on a ton of debt to get a huge pile of money...started the revamping...closed plants...total product redesign...sold off Jag and Land Rover in early 2008 for a couple of billion...

    And then bad shit hit...the recession in late 2008...lol

    But they did have cash and a big credit line...and they also got 5 or 6 billion in low cost fed loans to help ...hell, even Nissan got a couple billion...this money was to be used specifically into new fuel efficient vehicles...

  11. #11
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    U.S. government says it lost $11.2 billion on GM bailout

    The U.S. government lost $11.2 billion on its bailout of General Motors Co, more than the $10.3 billion the Treasury Department estimated when it sold its remaining GM shares in December, according to a government report released on Wednesday.

    The $11.2 billion loss includes a write-off in March of the government's remaining $826 million investment in "old" GM, the quarterly report by a Treasury watchdog said.

  12. #12
    826 million dollar investment in the old GM (ticker symbol MTLQQ, official name Motor Liquidation Company)....investment my ass...that was 826 million of worthless stock....MTLQQ was the crap that no one wanted so the folded it into MTLQQ and let the new GM off the hook....

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    826 million dollar investment in the old GM (ticker symbol MTLQQ, official name Motor Liquidation Company)....investment my ass...that was 826 million of worthless stock....MTLQQ was the crap that no one wanted so the folded it into MTLQQ and let the new GM off the hook....
    The article says it saved $1.5 million jobs. That's about $7,500 per job. Seems to me that the laid off probably would have cost more than that in food stamps and unemployment. That's a lot of jobs.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by SoonerAtty View Post
    The article says it saved $1.5 million jobs. That's about $7,500 per job. Seems to me that the laid off probably would have cost more than that in food stamps and unemployment. That's a lot of jobs.
    I have always believed strongly in the bailout...it saved GM and a huge supplier network....Goodyear would have never survived.....

    My comments were about the latest addition to the overall loss...everyone and their dog knew that the MTLQQ stock was worthless and would never be worth diddly schite....

    Bailing out Chrysler and selling them to Fiat still pisses me off....

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    I have always believed strongly in the bailout...it saved GM and a huge supplier network....Goodyear would have never survived.....

    My comments were about the latest addition to the overall loss...everyone and their dog knew that the MTLQQ stock was worthless and would never be worth diddly schite....

    Bailing out Chrysler and selling them to Fiat still pisses me off....
    I'm not sure who the sucker is on the Fiat deal. Lol
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  16. #16
    Originally Posted by SoonerAtty View Post
    I'm not sure who the sucker is on the Fiat deal. Lol
    LOL

    Fiat did receive a ready made dealer network...they wanted a footprint in the US market and instead of spending a decade and billions to develop one the US sold them one....they haven't really capitalized on it with Fiat vehicles....read up on Fiat and you will see they want to become a worldwide automotive power....similar to VW....

  17. #17
    Stinger_1066's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    I have always believed strongly in the bailout...it saved GM and a huge supplier network....Goodyear would have never survived.....
    Seriously? Surprised to hear this coming from you.

    Neither you nor I should have been forced to invest in a money losing enterprise. They should have been allowed to fail just like any other company that goes through bankruptcy. Private money, which you and I could have voluntarily contributed to, would have purchased the worthwhile assets and made money off that investment.
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  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by Stinger_1066 View Post
    Seriously? Surprised to hear this coming from you.

    Neither you nor I should have been forced to invest in a money losing enterprise. They should have been allowed to fail just like any other company that goes through bankruptcy. Private money, which you and I could have voluntarily contributed to, would have purchased the worthwhile assets and made money off that investment.
    Exactly and while it may have been worse at first for those companies the recovery would have been a lot better by now. It is the same with the banking bailout. But that would be insinuating that what we have right now is an actual free market, which it isn't.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by Stinger_1066 View Post
    Seriously? Surprised to hear this coming from you.

    Neither you nor I should have been forced to invest in a money losing enterprise. They should have been allowed to fail just like any other company that goes through bankruptcy. Private money, which you and I could have voluntarily contributed to, would have purchased the worthwhile assets and made money off that investment.
    I have stated that I believed in the bailouts multiple times in the past....

    First, they did fail...they filed for a Chapter 11...a reorganization
    Second, the worthless assets were placed into MTLQQ
    Third, part of the restructuring was the government being issued shares in the company at a certain share price...
    Fourth, the government could have held the shares for a longer period of time and possible recouped all loans if the share price increased
    Fifth, if GM and Chrysler were allowed to file Chapter 7 both companies would have shut down causing hundreds of thousands to be laid off....the entire supplier network that supplied the manufacturers would have been lost due to filing at least a Chapter 11 and possibly a Chapter 7...either of which would have added hundreds of thousands of additional layoffs...
    Sixth, the foreign auto manufacturers would have taken massive market share due to the major players being out of business. Business that would have never came back to US ownership
    Seventh, there was no private capital available at the time so no outsider outside of the government would take on the massive losses to keep a critical segment of the economy afloat..

    Then we sold Chrysler to Fiat....
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  20. #20
    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    I have stated that I believed in the bailouts multiple times in the past....

    First, they did fail...they filed for a Chapter 11...a reorganization
    Second, the worthless assets were placed into MTLQQ
    Third, part of the restructuring was the government being issued shares in the company at a certain share price...
    Fourth, the government could have held the shares for a longer period of time and possible recouped all loans if the share price increased
    Fifth, if GM and Chrysler were allowed to file Chapter 7 both companies would have shut down causing hundreds of thousands to be laid off....the entire supplier network that supplied the manufacturers would have been lost due to filing at least a Chapter 11 and possibly a Chapter 7...either of which would have added hundreds of thousands of additional layoffs...
    Sixth, the foreign auto manufacturers would have taken massive market share due to the major players being out of business. Business that would have never came back to US ownership
    Seventh, there was no private capital available at the time so no outsider outside of the government would take on the massive losses to keep a critical segment of the economy afloat..

    Then we sold Chrysler to Fiat....
    The market does not act like the market when the financial system is about to collapse. That's chaos.

  21. #21
    One other item...

    We waited far too long before starting the bailout...we knew at the end of Bush's term that they were not going to make it....six months later, June 1st, GM filed for Chapter 11...in that six months they burned through every stinking penny of cash they had available ...they burned through at least 20 billion dollars in cash and red ink in the six months prior to the restructuring on June 1st... am guessing it was closer to 30 billion but I am too lazy to do the research...

  22. #22
    Only the USPS can rival GM for annual losses....but that is a different story....

  23. #23
    Stinger_1066's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    I have stated that I believed in the bailouts multiple times in the past....

    First, they did fail...they filed for a Chapter 11...a reorganization
    Second, the worthless assets were placed into MTLQQ
    Third, part of the restructuring was the government being issued shares in the company at a certain share price...
    Fourth, the government could have held the shares for a longer period of time and possible recouped all loans if the share price increased
    Fifth, if GM and Chrysler were allowed to file Chapter 7 both companies would have shut down causing hundreds of thousands to be laid off....the entire supplier network that supplied the manufacturers would have been lost due to filing at least a Chapter 11 and possibly a Chapter 7...either of which would have added hundreds of thousands of additional layoffs...
    Sixth, the foreign auto manufacturers would have taken massive market share due to the major players being out of business. Business that would have never came back to US ownership
    Seventh, there was no private capital available at the time so no outsider outside of the government would take on the massive losses to keep a critical segment of the economy afloat..

    Then we sold Chrysler to Fiat....
    Why should I care about any of that? They took our money without our consent and rewarded incompetent management.

    Not everyone wants to buy a Toyota, but a Chevy buyer doesn't care whether Chevy is owned by Toyota, the US government, VW, or whomever. He just wants to drive a Vette, Camaro or Silverado. Foreign car manufacturers would have seen the opportunity to take over the US based operations and the brands, and continued building the vehicles here.

    Do you think GM has really changed that much? Their R&D, their marketing, their designs, their manufacturing processes, their contracts with the unions and their suppliers, how they manage their finances?

    Sooner or later they'll be in trouble again, and be asking for another handout.
    Last edited by Stinger_1066; May 1st, 2014 at 03:52 PM.

  24. #24
    Originally Posted by Stinger_1066 View Post
    Why should I care about any of that? They took our money without our consent and rewarded incompetent management.

    Not everyone wants to buy a Toyota, but a Chevy buyer doesn't care whether Chevy is owned by Toyota, the US government, VW, or whomever. He just wants to drive a Vette, Camaro or Silverado. Foreign car manufacturers would have seen the opportunity to take over the US based operations and the brands, and continued building the vehicles here.

    Do you think GM has really changed that much? Their R&D, their marketing, their designs, their manufacturing processes, their contracts with the unions and their suppliers, how they manage their finances?

    Sooner or later they'll be in trouble again, and be asking for another handout.
    Nobody wanted the sick sob...no one wanted to take the risk...no one had the funding to purchase the dog...

    Chapter 7 would have shut down every single plant....every dealership would have closed....every supplier would have been on the brink of disaster....

    The company would have been sold off in pieces....who would have bought the factories? No one since the market had tanked and there was over supply...

    Someone would have bought the name but we would have seen a Tundra rebadged at a Silverado.....

    The timing of a 2008 shutdown would have been horrendous....the economy was shedding jobs at an alarming rate....shutting GM and a large amount of suppliers down would have added an untold amount of lost jobs...at a time when we couldn't afford another huge blow to the economy...

    They are still struggling and the future is still dismal...if they were to go under it would be far better in a decent (I use that term loosely) economy instead of the 2008 disaster....

    All you folks that were/are against the bank and auto bailouts would not be so happy when a depression was raging....I firmly believe we would have seen long soup lines due to a 20% unemployment rate...not to mention revenue in the 10-12% of GDP range....locked up financial markets with no money to be loaned...causing an already decimated housing market to crash further....

    We waited too long to let them file Chapter 11

    We did little or nothing to resolve future banking disasters since we still have many investment firms that are too big to fail...

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