Heaven vs. Hell Question

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  1. #101
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    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    My belief which you don't have to agree with is that we must die, be buried, and be resurrected just as Jesus was. That only happens through immersion.
    will you be buried in a tomb?
    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    I'm Catholic...
    I knew I liked you...
    Originally Posted by pphilfran View Post
    I was an unmolested alter boy....
    me too...well partly

  2. #102
    Originally Posted by brokebacksooner View Post
    One of the great mysteries of Christianity is how someone who does bad things their whole life and accepts Christ before dying can get into heaven while someone who does good works their whole life but doesn't accept Christ is left out in the heat.

    One of the best things about Christianity is that people like 87 will have neighbors like me and Cub for all of eternity and there's not a damn thing he can do about it. LOL

    how is it "mysterious"?
    the bible makes it clear salvation has nothing to do with "works"...

  3. #103
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    I think it's wild that people think the overall ability of one to get into heaven is predicated upon the crucial event that you were dunked in water.

  4. #104
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    the bible makes it clear salvation has nothing to do with "works"...
    does it? I believe the only time in the Bible that the phrase faith alone is mentioned is in a negative sense.

  5. #105
    Originally Posted by SoonerBounce View Post
    does it? I believe the only time in the Bible that the phrase faith alone is mentioned is in a negative sense.

    ephesians 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  6. #106
    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    I think it's wild that people think the overall ability of one to get into heaven is predicated upon the crucial event that you were dunked in water.
    well....i'm not sure anyone believes this....
    do you also think it's wild that people think you have to be a certain denomination to get into heaven?

  7. #107
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    ephesians 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
    well yeah. it says you are saved by grace not by works. It would be silly if you could be saved by works and not grace/faith.

  8. #108
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    I like this article

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/faworks.htm
    During the Protestant Reformation in the early 1500s, a familiar term regarding salvation was "sola fide," Latin for "by faith alone." The reformers, at that time, accused the Catholic Church of departing from the "simple purity of the Gospel" of Jesus Christ. They stated it was faith alone, without works of any kind, that brought a believer to eternal life. They defined this faith as "the confidence of man, associated with the certainty of salvation, because the merciful Father will forgive sins because of Christ's sake."
    This view of salvation is a crucial issue because it strikes at the very heart of the Gospel message eternal life. Roman Catholicism teaches that we are not saved by faith alone. The Church has taught this since 30 A.D. as part of the Divine Revelation. The truth of the Catholic Church's teaching can be demonstrated from Sacred Scripture alone.

    All who claim the title "Christian" will be able to agree on the following two truths: salvation is by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8) and salvation is through Christ alone (Acts 4:12). These biblical facts will be our foundation as we explain the teaching of the Catholic Church.

    If we take a concordance and look up every occurrence of the word "faith," we come up with an undeniable fact the only time the phrase "faith alone" is used in the entire Bible is when it is condemned (James 2:24). The epistle of James only mentions it in the negative sense.

    The Bible tells us we must have faith in order to be saved (Hebrews 11:6). Yet is faith nothing more than believing and trusting? Searching the Scriptures, we see faith also involves assent to God's truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed by the reformers, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it's certainly an attention grabber.

    Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was "born again" it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by "remaining in Him" (John 15:1-11).

    Paul tells us our faith is living and can go through many stages. It never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience no matter how genuine or sincere. Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a "waiver" that exempts them from these verses.

    Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5.

    Some will object by appealing to Romans 4:3 and stating Abraham was "declared righteous" before circumcision. Thus he was only saved by "believing" faith (Genesis 15:6), not by faith "working in love" (Galatians 5:6). Isn't this what Paul means when he says none will be justified by "works of law" (Romans 3:28)? No, this is not what he means. He's condemning the Old Covenant sacrifices and rituals which couldn't justify and pointing to better things now in Christ Jesus in the New Covenant (Hebrews 7-10). A close examination of Abraham's life revealed a man of God who did something. In Genesis 12-14 he makes two geographical moves, builds an altar and calls on the Lord, divides land with Lot to end quarrels, pays tithes, and refuses goods from the King of Sodom to rely instead on God's providence. He did all these works as an old man. It was certainly a struggle. After all these actions of faith, then he's "declared righteous" (Genesis 15:6). Did these works play a role in his justification? According to the Bible, yes.

    The Catholic Church has never taught we "earn" our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can't earn it but you can lose the free gift given from the Father (James 1:17).

    The reformer's position cannot be reconciled with the Bible. That is why the Catholic Church has taught otherwise for over 1,960 years.

    Where does our assistance come from to reach our heavenly destination? Philippians 4:13 says it all, "I can do all things in Him who strengthens me."

  9. #109
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    well....i'm not sure anyone believes this....
    do you also think it's wild that people think you have to be a certain denomination to get into heaven?
    It makes sense to me that people THINK that, yes.

    But doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that some people think that NO MATTER WHAT, if you didn't get dunked in water, you can't get in? Even if you were as close to Christlike as a human could be your entire life, if you didn't get dunked, it doesn't count? Wild.

  10. #110
    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    It makes sense to me that people THINK that, yes.

    But doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that some people think that NO MATTER WHAT, if you didn't get dunked in water, you can't get in? Even if you were as close to Christlike as a human could be your entire life, if you didn't get dunked, it doesn't count? Wild.
    who actually believes/teaches that?

  11. #111
    Originally Posted by SoonerBounce View Post
    well yeah. it says you are saved by grace not by works. It would be silly if you could be saved by works and not grace/faith.
    it would be just as silly if salvation required faith AND works...

  12. #112
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    who actually believes/teaches that?
    Pretty sure Church of Christ believes that. (I.e.- the actual dunking and complete submersion in water is a crucial aspect of salvation.) Someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

  13. #113
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    it would be just as silly if salvation required faith AND works...
    not really. The salvation and works idea dates back to the year 30. I don't think it is enough to believe Jesus is the Christ and died for our sins and bam, you are in heaven. The way you live your life imo plays a part in salvation. It is by grace alone that we are saved. thats a fact. I just don't think faith alone saves. Kinda a moot point imo though because if you truly have faith, you will live your life as close to christlike as possible

  14. #114
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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    Pretty sure Church of Christ believes that. (I.e.- the actual dunking and complete submersion in water is a crucial aspect of salvation.) Someone correct me if I'm wrong there.
    My Grandmonther in law is CofC. I'm pretty sure she thinks I'm going to Hell and that her opinion of me changed when she found out I was Catholic and converted her granddaughter

  15. #115
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    Originally Posted by SoonerBounce View Post
    My Grandmonther in law is CofC. I'm pretty sure she thinks I'm going to Hell and that her opinion of me changed when she found out I was Catholic and converted her granddaughter
    The CofC peeps can get a little militant...(esp in southern Oklahoma).

  16. #116
    Originally Posted by SoonerBounce View Post
    not really. The salvation and works idea dates back to the year 30. I don't think it is enough to believe Jesus is the Christ and died for our sins and bam, you are in heaven. The way you live your life imo plays a part in salvation. It is by grace alone that we are saved. thats a fact. I just don't think faith alone saves. Kinda a moot point imo though because if you truly have faith, you will live your life as close to christlike as possible
    "works" is evidence of salvation......not a requirement...
    again...using the thief on the cross as an example.....he did not have to do ANY "work"....
    and again....the bible says some will get into heaven by the skin of their teeth...

  17. #117
    What if you were not baptized, but you NEVER take off your WWJD bracelet? Eh? Hell?

  18. #118
    Originally Posted by SoonerBounce View Post
    My Grandmonther in law is CofC. I'm pretty sure she thinks I'm going to Hell and that her opinion of me changed when she found out I was Catholic and converted her granddaughter
    all my catholic friends/family think non-catholics are going to hell.....why would you care what she thinks?

  19. #119
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    "works" is evidence of salvation......not a requirement...
    again...using the thief on the cross as an example.....he did not have to do ANY "work"....
    and again....the bible says some will get into heaven by the skin of their teeth...
    i get what you're saying. I don't think there is a 100% right position.
    I do think the thief on the cross is a little bit of a different example though. An exception to the rule. I mean, he didn't show real faith (if that's such a thing). He believed once he saw....that's not much of an example of faith

  20. #120
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    all my catholic friends/family think non-catholics are going to hell.....why would you care what she thinks?
    I don't care what she thinks. my wife does though. Just pointing out how a few people don't represent the whole religion. as evident by the second part of your post. that's not taught anywhere in the church

  21. #121
    Originally Posted by SoonerBounce View Post
    I don't care what she thinks. my wife does though. Just pointing out how a few people don't represent the whole religion. as evident by the second part of your post. that's not taught anywhere in the church
    why do so many catholics believe that?
    it must have been taught at some point....
    or is it just individual arrogance/pride?

  22. #122
    Originally Posted by SoonerBounce View Post
    i get what you're saying. I don't think there is a 100% right position.
    I do think the thief on the cross is a little bit of a different example though. An exception to the rule. I mean, he didn't show real faith (if that's such a thing). He believed once he saw....that's not much of an example of faith
    i think there are many examples of people believing after they "saw" in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry....
    faith is faith...regardless of how one "finds" it...

  23. #123
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    i think there are many examples of people believing after they "saw" in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry....
    faith is faith...regardless of how one "finds" it...
    Jesus healed a paralytic based on the faith exhibited by others, and not the paralytic himself. Sometimes grace can save even without your own personal faith?

  24. #124
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    why do so many catholics believe that?
    it must have been taught at some point....
    or is it just individual arrogance/pride?
    i do not know one catholic that believes that. and I know ALOT of Catholics. So....I'm guessing you have a bad sample of Catholics or you are making assumptions
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  25. #125
    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    Jesus healed a paralytic based on the faith exhibited by others, and not the paralytic himself. Sometimes grace can save even without your own personal faith?
    no...

  26. #126
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    no...
    A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

    I think Jesus can do whatever He wants to do.
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  27. #127
    Oh man! this seems like fun! Where did all the Christians who hacked innocent people to death with swords because they wouldn't convert to their religion of peace and tolerance during the Crusades end up? Heaven or Hell?

  28. #128
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    Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret View Post
    Oh man! this seems like fun! Where did all the Christians who hacked innocent people to death with swords because they wouldn't convert to their religion of peace and tolerance during the Crusades end up? Heaven or Hell?
    Definitely hell. Like, for sure. Partying with Jimi and Belushi right now.

  29. #129
    Originally Posted by SoonerBounce View Post
    i do not know one catholic that believes that. and I know ALOT of Catholics. So....I'm guessing you have a bad sample of Catholics or you are making assumptions

    is that something you talk about with all your catholic friends?
    have you asked all of them?
    i know how my wife and i were treated by catholic friends/family when we started going to a doc church...
    and it was clear why....one friend.....who has since changed his belief....wrote a long letter outlining his beliefs and expressing his sadness/disappointment that we had resigned our salvation...

  30. #130
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    is that something you talk about with all your catholic friends?
    have you asked all of them?
    i know how my wife and i were treated by catholic friends/family when we started going to a doc church...
    and it was clear why....one friend.....who has since changed his belief....wrote a long letter outlining his beliefs and expressing his sadness/disappointment that we had resigned our salvation...
    No I have not had that conversation with all of them. I'm sorry some treated you like that. I can assure you it is few that are like that and it isn't taught in the Church.

    I'm going to guess that you are mistaking their disagreement and dissappointment in you leaving for hatred and judgement

  31. #131
    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post

    A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
    I think Jesus can do whatever He wants to do.
    i think the paralytic is prolly included in "their"....

  32. #132
    Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret View Post
    Oh man! this seems like fun! Where did all the Christians who hacked innocent people to death with swords because they wouldn't convert to their religion of peace and tolerance during the Crusades end up? Heaven or Hell?
    well....Jesus said there will be people who call out "Lord Lord".....but He will respond "I never knew you".....
    so those "christians" could fall into that category.....
    but it's still about repentance/forgiveness.....and God knows their hearts and like mellonhead said...He can do what He wants...

  33. #133
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    i think the paralytic is prolly included in "their"....
    The paralytic demonstrated no faith. He was lying on a mat. His four buddies got him onto the roof and dug/cut a hole in the roof and lowered the paralytic down.

  34. #134
    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    The paralytic demonstrated no faith. He was lying on a mat. His four buddies got him onto the roof and dug/cut a hole in the roof and lowered the paralytic down.
    they didn't drag him their flailing and screaming....
    he demonstrated his faith by believing and going willingly....

  35. #135
    Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret View Post
    Oh man! this seems like fun! Where did all the Christians who hacked innocent people to death with swords because they wouldn't convert to their religion of peace and tolerance during the Crusades end up? Heaven or Hell?
    And you had to bring the war in Iraq into this mess. Shame on you!!!

  36. #136
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    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    The CoC teaches that a person must be obedient to what God/Christ asks us to do. Acts 2:38 and other scriptures say that baptism is a crucial part of obedience. There are several other scriptures that tie baptism to salvation.

  37. #137
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    they didn't drag him their flailing and screaming....
    he demonstrated his faith by believing and going willingly....
    Haha, OK man. Whatever you say. That's a really passive faith.

  38. #138
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    Btw. If baptism is a death burial and resurrection just like Christs own D/B/R then there was no need for the thief on the cross to be baptized because Christ hadn't completed his own D/B/R?

  39. #139
    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    Haha, OK man. Whatever you say. That's a really passive faith.
    seriously? a person has to walk/run/jump up and down to "demonstrate" faith?
    "sorry mr. quadraplegic....you haven't demonstrated your faith aggressively.....no salvation for you," Jesus said.

  40. #140
    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    Btw. If baptism is a death burial and resurrection just like Christs own D/B/R then there was no need for the thief on the cross to be baptized because Christ hadn't completed his own D/B/R?
    good point

  41. #141
    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    The CoC teaches that a person must be obedient to what God/Christ asks us to do. Acts 2:38 and other scriptures say that baptism is a crucial part of obedience. There are several other scriptures that tie baptism to salvation.
    can you cite a few....i'm too lazy to look them up...

    imo....baptism falls under "works"...going back to the scripture cited earlier...

    ephesians 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  42. #142
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    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    Mark 16:16 he who believes and is baptized will be saved

    John 3:5 unless one is born of water and the spirit he can enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Acts 8:35 the eunuch asked to be baptized immediately after being taught about Jesus

    Acts 22:16 arise and be baptized washing away your sins

    Romans 6:3-4 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Colossians 2:12 B]uried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

    1 Peter 3:20 baptism now saves you.

  43. #143
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    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    IMO works are things that help others or the church. Baptism does nothing for nobody but the person who is being immersed.

  44. #144
    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    IMO works are things that help others or the church. Baptism does nothing for nobody but the person who is being immersed.
    i disagree..
    i believe "works" is ANYTHING of man...
    Jesus death did it all.....nothing i can do on my own matters....
    you're doing exactly what ephesians 2:8 warns against....
    "sorry bounce.....i'm saved because i was immersed...you are not because you weren't"....
    what if a new denomination said "sorry prices......we believe you MUST be immersed in a river...like Jesus....or you're not saved"....
    what would you think of that?
    john baptized many prior to Jesus' death....yet the thief was never baptized....and he went to heaven.....

    it's obvious you believe all catholics (and anyone else who wasn't immersed) are not saved....
    i disagree with catholicism for many reason....but they're savable

  45. #145
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    i disagree..
    i believe "works" is ANYTHING of man...
    Jesus death did it all.....nothing i can do on my own matters....
    you're doing exactly what ephesians 2:8 warns against....
    "sorry bounce.....i'm saved because i was immersed...you are not because you weren't"....
    what if a new denomination said "sorry prices......we believe you MUST be immersed in a river...like Jesus....or you're not saved"....
    what would you think of that?
    john baptized many prior to Jesus' death....yet the thief was never baptized....and he went to heaven.....

    it's obvious you believe all catholics (and anyone else who wasn't immersed) are not saved....
    i disagree with catholicism for many reason....but they're savable
    What about Episcopaleans....are we savable?

  46. #146
    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    What about Episcopaleans....are we savable?
    i don't know any personally...so i'll just have to assume they are

  47. #147
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    i don't know any personally...so i'll just have to assume they are
    We're a lot like Catholics but we don't have any rules...

  48. #148
    Originally Posted by XxSuBLiMexX;1004343[/B
    It's an honest question. [/B]Why can't I ask an honest question? It seems a bit unfair that someone can ruin so many lives and get off easy as long as he asks for forgiveness in an honest way. I think God needs to revise some policies.
    No it's not. It's a leading question intended to draw out over simplistic answers so that your "superior intellect" can be put on display. Frame the discussion honestly and fairly and people might stop calling you a troll...

  49. #149
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    Originally Posted by Teo9969 View Post
    No it's not. It's a leading question intended to draw out over simplistic answers so that your "superior intellect" can be put on display. Frame the discussion honestly and fairly and people might stop calling you a troll...
    I haven't bashed anyone in here. Don't judge a book by its cover. Like the Bible for instance, boring cover... profound text.

  50. #150
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    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    i disagree..
    i believe "works" is ANYTHING of man...
    Jesus death did it all.....nothing i can do on my own matters....
    you're doing exactly what ephesians 2:8 warns against....
    "sorry bounce.....i'm saved because i was immersed...you are not because you weren't"....
    what if a new denomination said "sorry prices......we believe you MUST be immersed in a river...like Jesus....or you're not saved"....
    what would you think of that?
    john baptized many prior to Jesus' death....yet the thief was never baptized....and he went to heaven.....

    it's obvious you believe all catholics (and anyone else who wasn't immersed) are not saved....
    i disagree with catholicism for many reason....but they're savable
    You have no clue what I believe. I'm not too worried about what a church or denomination says I must do. I believe you, I, bounce and everyone else must work out their own salivation for themselves.

    I just believe that man must do what the scriptures tells us we should do and I think the scriptures I laid out for you are pretty clear what the purpose of baptism is.

    As far as works goes I believe that Eph 2 is talking about doing enough good things like feeding the hungry, giving to your church, etc to get into heaven. A person can't live like a heathen and give money to an orphanage and be all good. Baptism is far from a work.

    You can't just discount the scriptures in Mark, Peter, Acts etc.

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