Heaven vs. Hell Question

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  1. #151
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    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    Originally Posted by XxSuBLiMexX View Post
    I haven't bashed anyone in here. Don't judge a book by its cover. Like the Bible for instance, boring cover... profound text.
    You have been very good in this thread.

  2. #152
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    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    I also must say that you said "works is anything of man". Well man did not make up baptism. In fact the scripture in Mark 16 are Jesus's own word.

  3. #153
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    Re: Heaven and Hell: I dont think either exist. I think we all get sub-atomically recycled, eventually.

  4. #154
    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    You have no clue what I believe. I'm not too worried about what a church or denomination says I must do. I believe you, I, bounce and everyone else must work out their own salivation for themselves.
    maybe i don't know what you believe...
    but when on one hand you say baptism by immersion is required for salvation....and on the other you say everyone must work out their own salvation.....you're being inconsistent at best....and dishonest at worst....

    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    I just believe that man must do what the scriptures tells us we should do and I think the scriptures I laid out for you are pretty clear what the purpose of baptism is.

    As far as works goes I believe that Eph 2 is talking about doing enough good things like feeding the hungry, giving to your church, etc to get into heaven. A person can't live like a heathen and give money to an orphanage and be all good. Baptism is far from a work.

    You can't just discount the scriptures in Mark, Peter, Acts etc.
    i don't discount them......i try to understand their meaning in context...
    for instance....you cited 1 peter 3:20....(should have been 21)......21 "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"
    but you didn't include the rest of the verse...."not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God."

    and you didn't enclude 20....20 "to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,"

    where peter is comparing the water that saved noah to the baptismal waters that save us.....

  5. #155
    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    I also must say that you said "works is anything of man". Well man did not make up baptism. In fact the scripture in Mark 16 are Jesus's own word.
    i didn't mean "ideas"...i meant "acts"....
    i'm sure john the baptist didn't come up with baptism on his own..
    but again....when you quote scripture....quote the WHOLE verse....

    mark 16: 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    why didn't Jesus say "whoever does not believe AND IS NOT BAPTIZED will be condemned?

  6. #156
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    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    maybe i don't know what you believe...
    but when on one hand you say baptism by immersion is required for salvation....and on the other you say everyone must work out their own salvation.....you're being inconsistent at best....and dishonest at worst....



    i don't discount them......i try to understand their meaning in context...
    for instance....you cited 1 peter 3:20....(should have been 21)......21 "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"
    but you didn't include the rest of the verse...."not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God."

    and you didn't enclude 20....20 "to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,"

    where peter is comparing the water that saved noah to the baptismal waters that save us.....
    Excuse me for not condemning people to hell.

  7. #157



    Even Christians amongst themselves cant agree who should be condemned to hell!!!

  8. #158
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    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    Originally Posted by URNotserious View Post



    Even Christians amongst themselves cant agree who should be condemned to hell!!!
    Maybe if they/we restrained from condemning anyone we could get along much better.
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  9. #159
    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    Excuse me for not condemning people to hell.
    man does not condemn anyone to hell by stating an opinion....

  10. #160
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    Funny how alot of christians condemn people to hell. Isnt that a sin? I thought only god could judge.

  11. #161
    Originally Posted by URNotserious View Post

    Even Christians amongst themselves cant agree who should be condemned to hell!!!
    yes we can.....
    we all SHOULD be condemned to hell....
    by the grace of God....some won't be...

  12. #162
    Originally Posted by beelzeBob View Post
    Funny how alot of christians condemn people to hell. Isnt that a sin? I thought only god could judge.
    funny how atheists think they're so intelligent....
    yet they don't know what the bible really says about judging/condemning

  13. #163
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    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    man does not condemn anyone to hell by stating an opinion....
    That's not entirely true. But if you want to go there by the "has to be baptized" theory I'm saved and those who have never been but believed (but not enough to obey fully) go to hell and by the "belief only" theory I'm still saved and so are the people who believed and haven't been baptized.

    So basically I'm 100% good.

  14. #164
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    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    funny how atheists think they're so intelligent....
    yet they don't know what the bible really says about judging/condemning
    Judge lest you be judged" and "judge righteous judgement"

    It's all pretty clear isn't it 87.

  15. #165
    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    Judge lest you be judged" and "judge righteous judgement"

    It's all pretty clear isn't it 87.
    apparently it isn't...

  16. #166
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    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    apparently it isn't...
    It's not clear at all. Many times it says to not judge but there are times it indicates that pointing out error is required so when should and shouldn't you judge is very confusing.

  17. #167
    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    It's not clear at all. Many times it says to not judge but there are times it indicates that pointing out error is required so when should and shouldn't you judge is very confusing.
    yes it is...

  18. #168
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    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    yes it is...
    Well?

  19. #169
    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    yes we can.....
    we all SHOULD be condemned to hell....
    by the grace of God....some won't be...
    If you and your Westboro Baptist crew is there, which by your definition is very likely, the sign outside is quickly going to say Hell.

  20. #170
    Originally Posted by URNotserious View Post
    If you and your Westboro Baptist crew is there, which by your definition is very likely, the sign outside is quickly going to say Hell.
    the westboro baptists are more your crew than mine...

  21. #171
    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    the westboro baptists are more your crew than mine...
    Lets see:

    87 is a baptist, so are they.
    87 is a jesus freak, so are they.
    87 thinks homosexuality is a sin, so do they.
    87 quotes bible verses at ill opportune times, so do they.

    If you dont already know it, YOU ARE the Westboro Baptist.

  22. #172
    Originally Posted by XxSuBLiMexX View Post
    I haven't bashed anyone in here. Don't judge a book by its cover. Like the Bible for instance, boring cover... profound text.
    What are you saying?

    Let me tell you why it's an intellectually dishonest question...

    You have predetermined the groundwork that bad people ought not have an easy pass into heaven on account of simply asking for forgiveness last minute ("It seems a bit unfair that someone can ruin so many lives and get off easy as long as he asks for forgiveness in an honest way. I think God needs to revise some policies." ...This response elicited well before anyone gave you a serious, thorough answer). You brought this supposition to the table without revealing your hand knowing that you will likely get a simple answer (cue 87's one word response "Heaven").

    Perhaps more egregious than the suppositions that you bring to the table though, is the way you frame a complex question in such a cut and dry way, while simultaneously being unwilling to accept the answer you are sure you're going to get.

    "If someone shot up a school and shortly after had a very "real" heart to heart with God and asked for forgiveness in a completely honest way, would he/she go to Heaven or Hell?"
    With terms like "'real' heart to heart" and "completely honest way" left absolutely undefined and nondescript, the other end of the line is left to make assumptions about your diction to fit with their understanding of the concepts you're prying at. This leads to an oversimplified answer that will certainly be unacceptable or "silly".

    The answers to the questions you ask won't work, not because they are in and of themselves wrong, but because they are incapable of adequately addressing the question posed at the onset.

    This is why many of us are weary of "dialoguing" with you about religion. Next time, I recommend starting this particular conversation with something like this: "It makes little sense to me that a man could commit an atrocity and shortly thereafter ask Jesus into his heart and be granted access to an eternity in heaven. Could someone please bring more definition to the components of this doctrine and describe how it actually functions theologically for those of us who don't understand how this belief could possibly be _______ (Moral, Just, Rational, etc.)?"

  23. #173
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    Originally Posted by Teo9969 View Post
    What are you saying?

    Let me tell you why it's an intellectually dishonest question...

    You have predetermined the groundwork that bad people ought not have an easy pass into heaven on account of simply asking for forgiveness last minute ("It seems a bit unfair that someone can ruin so many lives and get off easy as long as he asks for forgiveness in an honest way. I think God needs to revise some policies." ...This response elicited well before anyone gave you a serious, thorough answer). You brought this supposition to the table without revealing your hand knowing that you will likely get a simple answer (cue 87's one word response "Heaven").

    Perhaps more egregious than the suppositions that you bring to the table though, is the way you frame a complex question in such a cut and dry way, while simultaneously being unwilling to accept the answer you are sure you're going to get.



    With terms like "'real' heart to heart" and "completely honest way" left absolutely undefined and nondescript, the other end of the line is left to make assumptions about your diction to fit with their understanding of the concepts you're prying at. This leads to an oversimplified answer that will certainly be unacceptable or "silly".

    The answers to the questions you ask won't work, not because they are in and of themselves wrong, but because they are incapable of adequately addressing the question posed at the onset.

    This is why many of us are weary of "dialoguing" with you about religion. Next time, I recommend starting this particular conversation with something like this: "It makes little sense to me that a man could commit an atrocity and shortly thereafter ask Jesus into his heart and be granted access to an eternity in heaven. Could someone please bring more definition to the components of this doctrine and describe how it actually functions theologically for those of us who don't understand how this belief could possibly be _______ (Moral, Just, Rational, etc.)?"
    Nah, I don't think so... the question that I truly wonder is... how many felons are in "Heaven"? And how many good people are in "Hell"?

  24. #174
    Originally Posted by XxSuBLiMexX View Post
    If someone shot up a school and shortly after had a very "real" heart to heart with God and asked for forgiveness in a completely honest way, would he/she go to Heaven or Hell?
    They get in. Gods level of forgiveness is almost limitless save blasphemy (SP?).

  25. #175
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    Originally Posted by bruthaman View Post
    They get in. Gods level of forgiveness is almost limitless save blasphemy (SP?).
    I expected that this is the answer, but this is one of the things in life I will NEVER understand about religion.

  26. #176

    Heaven vs. Hell Question

    Originally Posted by SoonerAmongThePack View Post
    I expected that this is the answer, but this is one of the things in life I will NEVER understand about religion.
    Why? It's all about true repentance. If you are sitting around and planning the shooting but telling yourself, 'I'll just repent after,' that's a different issue entirely.

  27. #177
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    Originally Posted by oucub23 View Post
    Why? It's all about true repentance. If you are sitting around and planning the shooting but telling yourself, 'I'll just repent after,' that's a different issue entirely.
    Is it? What if your subsequent repentance is true in your heart? You should be in the clear, right?

    I mean, even right now, you know you'll sin in the future as a CERTAINTY, yet you plan to repent. Same dif.
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  28. #178
    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    is that something you talk about with all your catholic friends?
    have you asked all of them?
    i know how my wife and i were treated by catholic friends/family when we started going to a doc church...
    and it was clear why....one friend.....who has since changed his belief....wrote a long letter outlining his beliefs and expressing his sadness/disappointment that we had resigned our salvation...
    You're full of shit. No Catholic I know believes that. I went to Catholic school, wife teaches at a Catholic school, kids go to a Catholic school. Can't get away from the Catholics! I know/Have known many and this is clearly something you made up or your "friends/family" made up or were taught in a small town, isolated church by a demented priest. You're the only one I've experienced so I'd say you made it up.
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  29. #179
    What about priests that sodomize little boys? Do they get in?

  30. #180
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    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    We're a lot like Catholics but we don't have any rules...
    sweet
    Originally Posted by XxSuBLiMexX View Post
    Don't judge a book by its cover.
    i don't think anyone is judging you by your cover. your pages lay in plain site to read
    Originally Posted by beelzeBob View Post
    Funny how alot of christians condemn people to hell. Isnt that a sin? I thought only god could judge.
    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    It's not clear at all. Many times it says to not judge but there are times it indicates that pointing out error is required so when should and shouldn't you judge is very confusing.
    there are many instances in the Bible that can seem contradictory.

    I still try not to judge anyone even though Paul tells us to judge other Christians. But I think that more than likely he meant to point out errors in their path to salvation. So if I see my brother getting drunk and going to the titty bar, I should discourage that behavior....but I shouldn't tell him he is going to hell for it.

  31. #181
    Originally Posted by beelzeBob View Post
    Funny how alot of christians condemn people to hell. Isnt that a sin? I thought only god could judge.
    2Pac taught that only God can judge.

  32. #182
    Originally Posted by hOUrricane View Post
    You're full of shit. No Catholic I know believes that. I went to Catholic school, wife teaches at a Catholic school, kids go to a Catholic school. Can't get away from the Catholics! I know/Have known many and this is clearly something you made up or your "friends/family" made up or were taught in a small town, isolated church by a demented priest. You're the only one I've experienced so I'd say you made it up.
    well....my parents/grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins/sister are/were catholic....
    my wife's parents/brothers/grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins are/were catholic...
    i have met dozens more in college/air force...
    i would say i have a pretty good sample size...
    i don't know why some of them believe that way.....if it is a catholic belief.....a tradition borne of arrogance/pride...or misunderstanding....
    but it exists....and it is definitely not made up my me....

  33. #183
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    Originally Posted by bruthaman View Post
    They get in. Gods level of forgiveness is almost limitless save blasphemy (SP?).
    Damn, so I'm pretty much out in the cold... or should we say in the inferno?

  34. #184
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    well....my parents/grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins/sister are/were catholic....
    my wife's parents/brothers/grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins are/were catholic...
    sound slike we found the common link
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    Last edited by OrangeBlossom; December 27th, 2012 at 09:53 AM.

  35. #185
    Originally Posted by URNotserious View Post
    Lets see:

    87 is a baptist, so are they.
    87 is a jesus freak, so are they.
    87 thinks homosexuality is a sin, so do they.
    87 quotes bible verses at ill opportune times, so do they.

    If you dont already know it, YOU ARE the Westboro Baptist.
    impressive logic....
    are you going to post pics of your doctorate degree next?

  36. #186
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    87 is way too hip and funny to be Westboro.

  37. #187
    Originally Posted by XxSuBLiMexX View Post
    87 is way too hip and funny to be Westboro.
    the westboro "leader" has some serious repenting to do...
    God holds "teachers" to a much higher standard than those who are not....

  38. #188
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    Originally Posted by oucub23 View Post
    Why? It's all about true repentance. If you are sitting around and planning the shooting but telling yourself, 'I'll just repent after,' that's a different issue entirely.
    I believe some acts to be unforgivable, and would hope and expect that a deity would see it the same way. Killing a room full of children would be near the top of the list.

  39. #189
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    Luke 22: 39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us! 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong. 42 And he said, Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. 43 And he said to him, Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.

  40. #190
    Originally Posted by SoonerAmongThePack View Post
    I believe some acts to be unforgivable, and would hope and expect that a deity would see it the same way. Killing a room full of children would be near the top of the list.
    sin is sin in most cases....
    if God can't forgive a murder.....He can't forgive you either....
    Jesus died as a sacrifice for ALL sin...

  41. #191
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    sin is sin in most cases....
    if God can't forgive a murder.....He can't forgive you either....
    Jesus died as a sacrifice for ALL sin...
    And 87 hit on another thing about religion I'll NEVER understand. How is it logical, or even possible, that a deity could view all sin as being equal?

  42. #192
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    Originally Posted by SoonerAmongThePack View Post
    And 87 hit on another thing about religion I'll NEVER understand. How is it logical, or even possible, that a deity could view all sin as being equal?
    How about why anyone gives a shit that Jesus fake died. If he really wanted to sacrifice, shouldn't he at least real die? I mean... a few days passed out isn't really that big of a deal.

  43. #193
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    Originally Posted by XxSuBLiMexX View Post
    How about why anyone gives a shit that Jesus fake died. If he really wanted to sacrifice, shouldn't he at least real die? I mean... a few days passed out isn't really that big of a deal.
    and this is why nobody takes your questions seriously and judges you by your "cover"
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  44. #194
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    Originally Posted by SoonerBounce View Post
    and this is why nobody takes your questions seriously and judges you by your "cover"
    Is it not true? Soldiers sacrifice a lot more for a lot less.

  45. #195
    Originally Posted by XxSuBLiMexX View Post
    How about why anyone gives a shit that Jesus fake died. If he really wanted to sacrifice, shouldn't he at least real die? I mean... a few days passed out isn't really that big of a deal.
    if you weren't trolling before....you are now..

  46. #196
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    if you weren't trolling before....you are now..
    Nope, honest question.

  47. #197
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    Originally Posted by XxSuBLiMexX View Post
    Is it not true? Soldiers sacrifice a lot more for a lot less.
    just stop. nobody thinks you are funny. you just make yourself look like an ignorant ass

  48. #198
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    Originally Posted by SoonerBounce View Post
    just stop. nobody thinks you are funny. you just make yourself look like an ignorant ass
    Hey, let me make the greatest sacrifice for every person ever....

    a few days later:
    alright dad, it is a bit stuffy in here, resurrect my ass.
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  49. #199
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    Originally Posted by XxSuBLiMexX View Post
    Hey, let me make the greatest sacrifice for every person ever....

    a few days later:
    alright dad, it is a bit stuffy in here, resurrect my ass.
    once again, just trolling. being an insensitive ****.
    first person that I will be putting on ignore in my message board existence. you really add nothing as a poster, not even entertainment. atleast socali can be entertaining as an ****

  50. #200
    Originally Posted by XxSuBLiMexX View Post
    Nope, honest question.
    He was not passed out.....He was dead......He was condemned to hell as punishment for the sins of all mankind......He was then resurrected

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