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Holy Blood, Holy Grail was written by three quacks. It is full of conjecture and reaches for "findings" as much as those who believe the recently found "cone-heads" are aliens. I have read the book as well as Dan Brown's version. At least he published his version as fiction.Originally Posted by beelzeBob
There is no historical evidence that Jesus was even crucified, much less survived it.
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And this question is why Jesus was the biggest atrocity that YWHW ever did. Well, except for goats. Goats should love Jesus.
Do you even know what you're talking about?
Yes. Did people get tortured for eternity before Jesus? And did not Jesus take the place of goats?
The majority of the evidence seems to be that he was crucified. Even Crossan and Ehrman support the accounts of the crucifixion.
Really? What evidence is there?
i guess it depends on your definition of torture....
"hell" is separation from God.......so you would prolly consider that paradise....
sheep you dumbazz......
so by extension....aggies are happy...
Apparently a number of historical sources record it as an event that took place and no reliable sources have successfully disputed it.
So give me a reliable source that is evidence for the crucifixion. Of course no reliable sources disputed it, the reliable sources also never disputed a whole lot of made up things. And give me the a couple examples of he number of reliable historical sources that record the crucifixion.
Tacitus, Flavius Josephus, Celsus, rabbinical authors of the Talmud and of course the Biblical gospel writers. There were plenty of reliable sources around who were in a position to dispute the crucifixion and the resurrection.
Interesting thread . . . I grew up attending a local ****embly of God church and then we moved on to the local Church of Christ (I know . . . night and day right) because most of my mom's family went there. My wife's family went there and her grandpa was an elder at another CofC. Her side is hardcore you can't use instruments and you've gotta be baptized to truly be saved. The biggest compliment I can give the CofC is that in my experience there are tons of knowledgable folks (bible knowledge) and I've come across some great teachers in the classes I've taken over the years. However, their legalistic POV towards women and their function in the church, their legalistic POV towards musical instruments and partly their being so adamant that someone on their deathbed who accepts Christ and repents of their sins must be immersed to truly be saved ultimately drove us to find a new church.
I've known men who thought if a woman taught a Sunday school cl**** to a bunch of 12 year-olds and one of the boys got baptized that she basically lost any authority to teach him . . . is that not one of the most idiotic POVs ever? Regardless of where you go the church would fall flat on it's face if women didn't teach . . . period. To then say that they aren't capable of teaching any baptized "man" is ludicrous.
/rant
So are u still cofc
Nope. Haven't been a member at one since early 2004.
I said reliable source. You do understand what the word reliable means, right? Let's just take you first source, what Tacitus wrote was 100 years after the crucifixion. So obviously he didn't witness anything and he was only writing about what he was told.
Those sources are considered reliable by historians, including the eyewitness ones. Tacitus in particular is well-regarded, especially in light of his antagonism toward Christianity; see for instance Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence by Van Voorst and The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition by Eddy and Boyd.
It is said Jeffrey Dahmer asked for forgiveness while in prison before he was killed. So by all indications, he could very well be living out eternity in Heaven. Who knows.
nothing wrong with that....
is that a problem for you?
It's not my place to put judgement on him and/or what he did in his final moments. All sin is equal in the eyes of God.
What would become of this argument if the Bible didn't actually say 'hell' existed, and the concept of "burning in hell" was discovered to be yet another man-made incantation?
revelation 20: 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
That says "the lake of fire is the second death". Do you know what "the second death" is? Or more importantly, when it's supposed to come about?
And again, there are several instances where all denominations decide what should be translated literally and what shouldn't. I think this subject is a tougher to differentiate than most, but there are many bible verses that indicate when sinners die, they just turn to dust - and that is their eternity.
the first death is when we die physically...
the second death is when we face God's judgment.....
our souls are eternal......we will either dwell eternally in God's presence......or be eternally separated from God (hell)....
Sort of, but not exactly. Be careful how you phrase that. All sins point to a sinful nature, but not all sins are equally heinous. Even Jesus spoke of greater and lesser sins, and the Bible further mentions differing degrees of punishment in hell (as well as differing degrees of reward in heaven).
These are my thoughts on this subject:
1) Why would a God of Life and Love create a situation where we'd be in an eternally burning state?
2) Up until Revelation, there was no description of an afterlife involving being burned eternally.
3) Before you say "Yes there was..." you should know that the Hebrew's 'Sheol' was an earthen grave, Jesus's 'Gehenna' was a literal, actual garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where oh btw they kept a fire going to turn the dead bodies to ash. And you can thank Martin Luther for the word 'hell'. Martin Luther = not an apostle.
4) Back to Revelation: It was written by someone about what, 70 years after Christ's death? It's full of mental imagery and just my opinion: it's really hard to tell from sentence to sentence if the authors visions are to be taken literally or not.
5) I know - how convenient, right? Well, that verse 87 pasted is the definitive "proof of hell". But there is much more "proof" that, upon death, we either simply cease to exist or we ascend to Heaven in some fashion.
that's very jehovah's witnessy of you....
how much proof do you need?
luke 16: 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Proverbs 3:5-6
New International Version (NIV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.
You've called me that before as an insult but I'll say it again. I'm not a Jehovah's witness. But I do think you could benefit from some of their practices. And relevantly: they put lots of stock in Revelation; I don't. And I think Revelation made it to the "final cut" in part because it was penned so long after the facts, after all the original apostles had died. It sticks out like a sore thumb.
Question, 87: Where exactly was the rich man in this story?
I fear this is a poorer effort than your 'proof' of the Holy Trinity in that other thread. Can you describe your understanding of Sheol/Gehenna/Hades and Hell? Just summarize.
I've always seen it more like it's represented in What Dreams May Come.
Nice vent.
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you may not be a jehovah's witness.....but your beliefs that you've discussed thus far align with their beliefs....denial of the Trinity....and the disbelief in hell.....
i guess you don't believe all scripture is God breathed either ......
the rich man died....he was in hades...where he was in torment.....
he obviously did not "turn to dust" as you believe.....
the proof of the Trinity is there....but you deny it.......as all good jehovah's witnesses do....
you will deny the existence of hell as well....
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Yes performed by a normal man.
It's encouraging to see you're actually researching now, even if it is just to get your story straight. Just gloss over confusing Hades with eternal hell, it's okay. Nobody believes you have any idea what the **** you're talking about anyway.
I didn't say I disbelieve in Hell. I did indicate it's a good debate. There's plenty to back up both sides of the argument. "Denial of the Trinity" is a laugher. You have no proof those ideas came from the Bible, while an ****load can be easily found in the bible which flatly refutes that notion, and there's ****loads of documented proof that Trinity idea came from man, long after the books of the bible were written.
Didn't you say in another thread recently, 87sooner, that you're "No longer doing what you want... but rather what God wants..." Where does the 10,000 ******** posts on a message board fall into God's plan for you? Doesn't that average to like 25 posts per day?
This is not my own words, but the guy makes the point better than I can (plus I'm lazy today):
All I'm saying is there is enough in the bible to make this whole "Eternal damnation to hell" issue a debatable point. We have two accounts reporting visions of a firey hot place, one is indicated as an eternal resting place for those who get the 2nd death. But we also have descriptions of two options: our souls either getting destroyed (see above; also Job had some to say about this subject) or having a home in heaven. What makes me suspicious is the fact that northern europeans had long believed in a place where bad people went when they died.... 'The Realm of Hel'. Hel was the daughter of Loki... the God of Fire.A word often used in scripture in reference to hell is Gehenna. Gehennas' true meaning has been forgotten by the passage of time. Gehenna was a well-known location in the time of Christ. Contrary to popular belief, Gehenna was not a place of other worldly fiery torment. Gehenna was a location just outside of Jerusalem.
Gehenna was a garbage dump. Used by Jews of the time to get rid of, or destroy things. Gehenna was a place to cast ones garbage, dead and diseased bodies, the bodies of criminals, and other refuse. In order to ensure complete and utter destruction, the Jews kept the fires of Gehenna always burning. Often fueling the fires with sulfur. Gehenna was a large valley often resembling, because of its size, a “burning lake of fire”. Many things aside from garbage were thrown into Gehenna. Often, the bodies of diseased dead people were thrown into Gehenna to ensure the diseases utter destruction and removal from populated areas. Also commonly thrown into the fires were the bodies of criminals, seen as a somewhat cleansing of society by utterly destroying the offenders. The fires of Gehenna were kept perpetually burning to utterly consume the corrupt things which were thrown into it.
When Christ was referring to Gehenna, He was therefore not referring to a place one goes after death. Gehenna would have been an inappropriate word to use to describe such a place. As those who would have heard him use this reference would not have ****ociated it with an afterwordly place of punishment. They certainly would have ****ociated it with the burning garbage dump.
See Matthew 10:28 28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.”
See James 3:6 “And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by Gehenna.”
See Luke 12:5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him!”
See Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into Gehenna.”
All or many of these passages refer to Gehenna as a place that one is “cast into”, and as a place of fire. Matthew 10:28 clearly states that the soul will be destroyed there.
It's funny how man has twisted **** up for their own benefit, convenience, "to make this fit across cultures", etc. But the Bible still remains pretty much intact.
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funny!
edit: that is what would become of it, not that it isn't already... and not that your statements aren't actually false either.
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True, the human idea of the trinity did arise afterwards, but the idea appears to accurately describe the relationship between the three persons of the godhead described in the Bible. It didn't have to be called a "trinity"; it could've been called the "Divine Triangle", the "Holy Triad" or even "Delta Force". Either way, the formulation of the description of the triune relationships, succintly referred to as a "trinity" is the solution to the puzzle.
The Bible described the existence of a single god, yet describes characteristics of three different persons in that god, in subject/object relationships to each other. The trinity concept accounts for the biblical description, while also accounting for love and the divinity of Jesus.
VUGear this is a moot point with me because I don't believe the Trinity is anything more than trivia, but could you please provide citations of actual bible verse which illuminates the three-in-one, subject/object-oriented godhead you describe?
Did you know the prevailing mythological gods of the era, as well as most earlier polytheistic beliefs including the Egyptians' system, were almost universally arranged in threes?
I didn't read this thread but Heaven and Hell is a top 10 album of all time. Not sure why you need to spend 6 pages debating that. It's pretty much settled. RIP RJD
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I can provide a few, but probably don't have time to do so exhaustively. I'll have to limit myself to some broad examples; there are numerous websites out there that cover the subject in much more depth than I can reasonably provide in this forum. I'll continue to update this post as I can. Perhaps Preterist can join in...
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
“the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19)
"and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: 'You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.'" (Luke 3:22)
"When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me." (John 15:26)
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you." (John 16:13-15)
"May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Corinthians 13:14)
"Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, 'Abba,[a] Father.'" (Galatians 4:6)
Yes, interesting coincidences.
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So it's on and on, and on
Cool well if you do get time, can you provide links to the websites that show scripture from the bible actually saying God had three different subject/object type manifestations?
now you're going full dumbazz on us.....
the idea of the Trinity came from the bible ...because the proof is in the bible....
I <3 U
i'm curious.....who is "the guy" that wrote your quoted reference? could you provide a link? tia
also...i can't remember if anyone posted this already...
matthew 25: 6 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
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