Can someone be born "evil"?

[SoulRebel]

So the recent ****s in India are getting quite a bit of attention in the media. I hadn't read much about it until this morning when I came across this article: International Business Times . The article states that a juvenile "ripped out the victim's intestines with bare hands". I sat there in shock for a minute contemplating whether this kid was born evil or learned it somewhere & then thought I would ask LT since everyone here is a genius.

I have no doubt that people can learn to be 'evil' but to me this is absolutely crazy & I am struggling to picture how a person could learn to be this cruel.

[auggie slippenstone]

Sure you can; we call them gingers.

[87sooner]

we are all born with the capacity for evil....
most people learn to control it

[RockFlagandEagle]

Freddy Kruger.

[oucub23]

People aren't born evil. They can be fundamentally broken as an infant or later in life though to where they simply don't register the concept in the way you and I do.

[arizsooner42]

I know that there are not that many people now who believe the Bible, I do and it says that all men are sinners. In Genesis before the flood, it says that the heart of man was only evil all of the time. In Proverbs it say that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately evil. Our country has killed 70 million unborn babies, some of them dismembered when removed from the mother at full term.

I believe that the people who are fooling themselves are the ones who think that they are not evil. We each think that our sins are somehow less evil than those of others.

One piece of evidence about the nature of man is the looting that occurs when a disaster interrupts law enforcement for a brief period of time. I wll tell you right now that if I had the power of mind control over everyone, I would have everyone send me $10. That is evil and it is just a thought.

[87sooner]

I know that there are not that many people now who believe the Bible, I do and it says that all men are sinners. In Genesis before the flood, it says that the heart of man was only evil all of the time. In Proverbs it say that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately evil. Our country has killed 70 million unborn babies, some of them dismembered when removed from the mother at full term.

I believe that the people who are fooling themselves are the ones who think that they are not evil. We each think that our sins are somehow less evil than those of others.

One piece of evidence about the nature of man is the looting that occurs when a disaster interrupts law enforcement for a brief period of time. I wll tell you right now that if I had the power of mind control over everyone, I would have everyone send me $10. That is evil and it is just a thought.

good post....
and you're right....most on this board won't believe it unless/until it's written in a science book...
with that in mind....here is a related thread i started over in the dome...

http://www.landthieves.com/board/sho...evil-quot-gene...

[SoulRebel]

I know that there are not that many people now who believe the Bible, I do and it says that all men are sinners. In Genesis before the flood, it says that the heart of man was only evil all of the time. In Proverbs it say that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately evil. Our country has killed 70 million unborn babies, some of them dismembered when removed from the mother at full term.

I believe that the people who are fooling themselves are the ones who think that they are not evil. We each think that our sins are somehow less evil than those of others.

One piece of evidence about the nature of man is the looting that occurs when a disaster interrupts law enforcement for a brief period of time. I wll tell you right now that if I had the power of mind control over everyone, I would have everyone send me $10. That is evil and it is just a thought.

How do you explain the lack of looting in ****an after the tsunami? This was well documented via media. I also have a very good friend who lives in Tokyo & we talked at length about it.

[oucub23]

I know that there are not that many people now who believe the Bible, I do and it says that all men are sinners. In Genesis before the flood, it says that the heart of man was only evil all of the time. In Proverbs it say that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately evil. Our country has killed 70 million unborn babies, some of them dismembered when removed from the mother at full term.

I believe that the people who are fooling themselves are the ones who think that they are not evil. We each think that our sins are somehow less evil than those of others.

One piece of evidence about the nature of man is the looting that occurs when a disaster interrupts law enforcement for a brief period of time. I wll tell you right now that if I had the power of mind control over everyone, I would have everyone send me $10. That is evil and it is just a thought.

All men are sinners.

Heart of man was only evil all of the time

Our country.

People.

Nature of Man ... looting

Mind control for free cheddar

None of these reference someone being born evil. There were no 3 day old toddlers stealing televisions and rattles post-Katrina. There are no infants doing partial birth stuff. Babies would use mind control for more food--not $10. That's not evil.

[87sooner]

All men are sinners.

Heart of man was only evil all of the time

Our country.

People.

Nature of Man ... looting

Mind control for free cheddar

None of these reference someone being born evil. There were no 3 day old toddlers stealing televisions and rattles post-Katrina. There are no infants doing partial birth stuff. Babies would use mind control for more food--not $10. That's not evil.

evil can be selfishness...
babies are selfish within days of being born....

[oucub23]

evil can be selfishness...
babies are selfish within days of being born....

And I don't believe that babies are evil. I also don't believe that selfishness is evil--it's instinctive. The actions that stem from that instinct can be construed as evil, but the feeling of self preservation in and of itself is not, any more than fear, love, anger or whatever is.

[87sooner]

And I don't believe that babies are evil. I also don't believe that selfishness is evil--it's instinctive. The actions that stem from that instinct can be construed as evil, but the feeling of self preservation in and of itself is not, any more than fear, love, anger or whatever is.

selfishness is the very heart of evil

[Sooner Bob]

selfishness is the very heart of evil

If not the very heart it is definitely part of the first step towards evil "doings".

[oucub23]

selfishness is the very heart of evil

We disagree. I'm stunned ...

[soonerbornsoonerbret]

evil can be selfishness...
babies are selfish within days of being born....

But they don't rip out your intestines after raping you.


and in before dome.

[smot poker]

[soonerbornsoonerbret]

Evel ≠ Evil

[Yuck Fu]

I know that there are not that many people now who believe the Bible, I do and it says that all men are sinners. In Genesis before the flood, it says that the heart of man was only evil all of the time. In Proverbs it say that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately evil. Our country has killed 70 million unborn babies, some of them dismembered when removed from the mother at full term.

Since this isn't in the dome yet I will ask this question as politely as I can. Do you think that God killed any unborn babies during the flood?

[The]

I know that there are not that many people now who believe the Bible, I do and it says that all men are sinners. In Genesis before the flood, it says that the heart of man was only evil all of the time. In Proverbs it say that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately evil. Our country has killed 70 million unborn babies, some of them dismembered when removed from the mother at full term.

I believe that the people who are fooling themselves are the ones who think that they are not evil. We each think that our sins are somehow less evil than those of others.

One piece of evidence about the nature of man is the looting that occurs when a disaster interrupts law enforcement for a brief period of time. I wll tell you right now that if I had the power of mind control over everyone, I would have everyone send me $10. That is evil and it is just a thought.

I think Star Wars did a better job of explaining good and evil than the bible.

[Sooner Bob]

I think Star Wars did a better job of explaining good and evil than the bible.

Why do you hate the Ewoks?

They're not evil.

[Steve O'Seinus]

It would probably help if there were a definition of evil that everyone could agree upon.

Good luck with that..............

[Sooner Bob]

It would probably help if there were a definition of evil that everyone could agree upon.

Good luck with that..............

[soonerintn]

How do you explain the lack of looting in ****an after the tsunami? This was well documented via media. I also have a very good friend who lives in Tokyo & we talked at length about it.

They didn't have any good stuff to steal. It was all wet.

[87sooner]

They didn't have any good stuff to steal. It was all wet.

and radioactive

[OKthere]

I come from the line that all behavior is learned so no.

[kssooner]

So the recent ****s in India are getting quite a bit of attention in the media. I hadn't read much about it until this morning when I came across this article: International Business Times . The article states that a juvenile "ripped out the victim's intestines with bare hands". I sat there in shock for a minute contemplating whether this kid was born evil or learned it somewhere & then thought I would ask LT since everyone here is a genius.

I have no doubt that people can learn to be 'evil' but to me this is absolutely crazy & I am struggling to picture how a person could learn to be this cruel.

I'm gonna guess that a person like this has some sort of personality disorder with a lack of conscience. Does it make them evil in of it itself, possibly but, imo, you'd have to have a definition of evil to base their actions on. If they never physically hurt anyone but they destroy everybody who gets close to them emotionally, is that evil? Some would say yes, some would say no.

Can it allow them to create unimaginable evil, absolutely.

The question I have is are these personality disorders a product of their raising or is it just nature, or God, creating a flawed brain or both? If it's just nature, or God, does it create some of these people solely for purpose of killing?

[oucub23]

It's environmental.

[brokebacksooner]

It's environmental.

But purely environmental doesn't explain why one sibling turns out "bad" and others turn out "good" when they are raised in the same environment. Granted it's rare that it's that cut and dried, usually it's degrees...

[oucub23]

But purely environmental doesn't explain why one sibling turns out "bad" and others turn out "good" when they are raised in the same environment. Granted it's rare that it's that cut and dried, usually it's degrees...

I've never met two siblings that are raised exactly the same. There are even differences encountered for twins. My sister and I had quite different upbringings, and both have the same parents who have been married for 45 years.

[87sooner]

yeah...just because two kids are raised in the same environment....doesn't mean they are raised the same....

[brokebacksooner]

I've never met two siblings that are raised exactly the same. There are even differences encountered for twins. My sister and I had quite different upbringings, and both have the same parents who have been married for 45 years.

While you and your sister had different upbringings, there were some constants (ie parents). It seems unlikely that you became the bad seed solely based on the other environmental variables; barring something traumatic such as ****, torture, etc.

[oucub23]

While you and your sister had different upbringings, there were some constants (ie parents). It seems unlikely that you became the bad seed solely based on the other environmental variables; barring something traumatic such as ****, torture, etc.

Kids are treated differently. I've got a client right now that's antisocial. His siblings are relatively normal. The majority of the beatings doled out (daily) came to my client, as well as the vast majority of emotional neglect. The way you create a killer is violence and emotional neglect. Killers are created by what they experience growing up, and how they find their releases for their anger--and if those releases are unhealthy, are they discovered and stopped and redirected?

We've got another being seen in our office that is preliminary Sandy Hook and we are watching (and trying to stop) it being created by the school, family and peer group. Show me a killer or a-social and I'll show you commonality of history.

Edit: Oh, and the jab made me laugh. Well played.

[McRib]

Ugh, antisocial kids.

[87sooner]

Kids are treated differently. I've got a client right now that's antisocial. His siblings are relatively normal. The majority of the beatings doled out (daily) came to my client, as well as the vast majority of emotional neglect. The way you create a killer is violence and emotional neglect. Killers are created by what they experience growing up, and how they find their releases for their anger--and if those releases are unhealthy, are they discovered and stopped and redirected?

We've got another being seen in our office that is preliminary Sandy Hook and we are watching (and trying to stop) it being created by the school, family and peer group. Show me a killer or a-social and I'll show you commonality of history.

Edit: Oh, and the jab made me laugh. Well played.

what causes a kid to be anti social?

[brokebacksooner]

Kids are treated differently. I've got a client right now that's antisocial. His siblings are relatively normal. The majority of the beatings doled out (daily) came to my client, as well as the vast majority of emotional neglect. The way you create a killer is violence and emotional neglect. Killers are created by what they experience growing up, and how they find their releases for their anger--and if those releases are unhealthy, are they discovered and stopped and redirected?

We've got another being seen in our office that is preliminary Sandy Hook and we are watching (and trying to stop) it being created by the school, family and peer group. Show me a killer or a-social and I'll show you commonality of history.

Edit: Oh, and the jab made me laugh. Well played.

But I ****ume the "evidence" of the beatings and emotional neglect comes from the client's own perceptions. Is it possible that 1) it isn't the whole truth or 2) if true it's because the parents saw something different in that child from an early age?

Don't get me wrong; I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and I do believe that 99.9% is environmental. I just question if how one reacts to that stimuli could have root in genetics, hormones or something else. Not every person that is "selected" to be the one who gets the beatings or the neglect turns out to be antisocial or psychotic. Some turn out fairly normal...

[oucub23]

what causes a kid to be anti social?

Kids typically aren't dx that way--the person I'm referencing is an adult. When we see a kid we think is a-social, we tend to not slap that tag bc it tends to make things worse. We'll go with ODD, Conduct D/O, RAD, etc instead. That being said, the 'right' combination of violence and emotional neglect tends to trigger the break. Inappropriate exposure to **** can also juice the mix. The break happens so the person can survive.

[McRib]

Yeah sorry. Conduct disorder & RAD is what I see.

Edit onto Cub's post: attachment issues are what my most difficult kids have dealt with. The kid who broke my hand, the one who kicked out my car window, a rapist... If you're unable to form attachments, then you can fail to develop empathy. No empathy, no conscience.

[oucub23]

But I ****ume the "evidence" of the beatings and emotional neglect comes from the client's own perceptions. Is it possible that 1) it isn't the whole truth or 2) if true it's because the parents saw something different in that child from an early age?

Don't get me wrong; I'm mostly playing devil's advocate and I do believe that 99.9% is environmental. I just question if how one reacts to that stimuli could have root in genetics, hormones or something else. Not every person that is "selected" to be the one who gets the beatings or the neglect turns out to be antisocial or psychotic. Some turn out fairly normal...

It's weird sitting across the room from someone that's a-social. There's little reason for embellishment because there's rarely any emotion involved. The truth is usually easy to pick up on because unless they're trying to get something, they have no reason to lie. They don't care about sympathy or anything of the sort typically.

There may be genetic predispositions larger for some than others--that's something I can't say is impossible. What I can say with certainty is that there is a common environmental thread with all a-socials I've encountered.

Genetically, I think the majority of the world's population can break that way given the right stressors.

Edit: Additionally, honestly, if a parent sees the a-social stuff there they would probably back off the kid rather than trying to beat it out of them. There's a coldness in these people that's unnerving as f***.

[Oldnslo]

Interesting. I've never thought about the idea that original sin might equate to evil. How infinitely depressing. Somebody's Universe features a Divinity which doesn't merely tolerate evil, but instead perpetuates it?

Having a hard time with that idea, friends.

Instead, I tend to see us all playing a part in God's plan, since the Almighty is omniscient and omnipotent. I certainly don't pretend to know what that plan is or how all the pieces fit together.
In other words, what is this "evil" to which you refer? Is it something outside of God's will? Can such a thing occur? I don't think so.

Many years ago, I met author Chaim Potok. Full of youth as I was, I asked him why he was so mean to his characters. He told me that he was nothing of the sort. Instead, the things that happened were to sensitize the character to what was happening or was going to happen.

Are sharks evil? Scorpions? Mosquitoes?

[bJ0]

I take it the victim that had her intestines pulled out was anally ****d?

[arizsooner42]

I saw a couple of apparently serious question regarding my post.

First, I used the sudden appearance of looting after disasters as an example of how near the surface evil lurks in many of us. The lack of looting in ****an is not really needed to refute my point, many Americans do not loot following a disaster. I have done business with ****anese businessmen in their country and I can testify that they were not sinless. If one believes that man is not born with a bent toward sin, he or she is welcome to believe it. I was just naming an authority (Bible) that I believe and some illustrations that show that it might be true on this subject.

With regard to whether God is evil with the death of babies as support, of course my answer is no. This part of my answer probably does move discussion to the dome, but the answer is pretty deep. God revealed what He wants us to know and what we are able to understand about Him through the Bible and through His coming as a human as Jesus. In Ephesians 3:10 he reveals that the reason that He created the universe and man included His desire to make something known to angels. I am convinced that He wanted to make the angels understand His sacrificial love which could best be done by the sacrifice that He paid for sin on Calvary. To do that He allowed man to sin and the consequence of man's decision was that death entered the world.

So all disease, death and evil have been allowed but not caused by God.

[Big Red One]

Yeah sorry. Conduct disorder & RAD is what I see.

Edit onto Cub's post: attachment issues are what my most difficult kids have dealt with. The kid who broke my hand, the one who kicked out my car window, a rapist... If you're unable to form attachments, then you can fail to develop empathy. No empathy, no conscience.

Sounds like Ted Bundy to me.

[The Baconator®]

The Bible has played a dreadful role in our history. It is full of errors, contradictions and absurdities. The problems we have overcome have been in spite of, not because of the Bible. It has been through the application of reason and science that we have overcome the things it has condoned, even demanded. Pretending otherwise is plain silly.

[SleestakkSooner]

Sounds like Ted Bundy to me.

And Dahmer. I think I recall seeing an interview with one of his therapists who pretty much described Dahmer that way. A complete lack of empathy and conscience.

[McRib]

Well, yeah. Sociopathy is often linked to attachment deficit.

[87sooner]

The Bible has played a dreadful role in our history. It is full of errors, contradictions and absurdities. The problems we have overcome have been in spite of, not because of the Bible. It has been through the application of reason and science that we have overcome the things it has condoned, even demanded. Pretending otherwise is plain silly.

don't believe your favorite atheist websites.....they lied to you on purpose...

[soonerintn]

Define evil. We are all born with lower level brain functions like self preservation instincts and the need to fulfill basic needs. I would argue that it is our upbringing and upper level brain functioning that controls or suppresses one's lower level function.

[arizsooner42]

Not that I think that evidence would change your mind, but that Bible you speak of contains over 300 prophecies all more than 700 years before Christ that were fulfilled by Christ such as,
He would be born in Bethlehem, yet would be of Nazereth and come up out of Egypt. The truimphal entry into Jerusalem was predicted to the day in Daniel of the Old Testament.

I would quote chapter and verse, but as I said, it is obvious that you would not be persuaded by evidence.

[Docsooner]

Nope raised to be evil. You know that old chestnut.

[landrun]

First, we have to admit or agree that 'evil' actually exists. For that matter, we'd have to agree that right and wrong actually exists. (which is the base argument to the OP's question)
Let's ****ume we all agree that wrong actually does exist. (though I admit that is a big ****umption)

What Bernie Madoff did isn't as 'evil' as a juvenile who "ripped out the victim's intestines with bare hands" - at least in most people's minds.
What Hitler did is even more evil than what this juvenile did - at least I would suspect that most people would say that.

I would have to say that many people are born 'evil'.
If not, we'd have to say that EVERYONE is born 'good'. From an athiestic point of view, I'd have to say that isn't reasonable.
If you have to be 'raised' to be evil, then you're saying that by default we'd be good if left to ourselves. I think if we weren't raised to be 'good' - ie - know what is socially acceptable - then by and large we would all turn out evil.

In short, I'd say human nature is so selfish it will be very 'evil' unless it is trained to be otherwise.

If you say there were 'raised to be evil', what you're really saying is that they were never taught NOT to be selfish.