Staff effort in recruiting

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  1. #1

    Staff effort in recruiting

    Anyone know if the rumors regarding several members of the staff not caring to put much effort into recruiting are true? I've heard this several times, especially around Shipp and BJW.

  2. #2
    From a results standpoint, it's either an effort standpoint or a capability standpoint. It's baffling how Oklahoma apparently doesn't have any DTs or DEs. I'm holding out hope for significant contributions from Phillips and Wade at DT and Tapper at DE. Of course, that alone isn't enough and really could use a brand new linebacking corps across the board.
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  3. #3
    Originally Posted by xunil View Post
    Anyone know if the rumors regarding several members of the staff not caring to put much effort into recruiting are true? I've heard this several times, especially around Shipp and BJW.
    At some point the proof has to be in the pudding. Right now we've got three coaches who are doing an outstanding job of recruiting: M. Stoops, C. Gundy and J. Norvell. Two guys who are really slipping: BJW, Shipp. One guy that is showing some troubling signs of being worthless but hasn't been here long enough yet to really make a judgment: Kish. And one guy that should be an assistant coach at a high school in Iowa: Kittle.

  4. #4
    We had commits from three LB's before the weekend. Two of those (Alexander and Evans) probably would never even play LB at OU. So that left Mastrogiovanni as our ONE pure LB commit and now he's gone.

    One of the most critical positions we've got due to a lack of talent and depth and we now don't have any commits.

    Recruiting efforts are starting to mirror our on the field performances.
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  5. #5
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    I would hope to gawd that BJW puts effort into recruiting. Thats the only reason he got a job in the first place, def not because of his coaching skills. I'm ready for him and sKittle to depart.

    Shipp has shown alot of production over the years. Lately I think he's simply missed out on some guys who haven't panned out.
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  6. #6
    wasn't it BJW that skipped out on recruiting recently to go play golf? I believe that was last year or two years ago (either way it's probably happened more than once)

    I think BJW, Shipp, Kittle, Kish and Patton need to be put on notice...move BJW to recruiting coordinator or something b/c he still has some value in Texas high schools

    Shipp has disappointed me for quite some time now but I would like to see him given one more year to right the ship with the new crop of players on the DL

    Kittle? Are you serious Bob? Hiring a guy with no D-1 experience? This guy should not even be here and our TEs don't even exist in this offense plus you have him coaching OT's as well? Hire the best, not your freaking buddies!!! Bob has to grow a pair here and cut ties with a friend

    Kish did what this year? We didn't even play LBs, how did they regress so freaking badly that we didn't even hardly play them? Nelson, Wort, Franklin, Shannon all have been phased out for the most part in our 6 DB schemes. Nelson and Wort are entering their senior seasons with a lot of question marks about playing time

    Patton's G/C/G group got dominated once again and we haven't had a consistent run game since the 2008 season, it's been abysmal...this year showed some improvement against Big 12 competition but against any team with a good or better DL we got pushed around and shut down

    Heupel has to show improvement as well, he has improved but going into his 3rd year on the job he has to show he has a better grasp on what's going on in the game and to make better calls. (3rd and 1 after Millard ran for 7 yards and we go for a pass to go 3 and out against A&M the other night...momentum killer to start the 2nd half)
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  7. #7
    Originally Posted by greensooner View Post
    wasn't it BJW that skipped out on recruiting recently to go play golf? I believe that was last year or two years ago (either way it's probably happened more than once)

    I think BJW, Shipp, Kittle, Kish and Patton need to be put on notice...move BJW to recruiting coordinator or something b/c he still has some value in Texas high schools

    Shipp has disappointed me for quite some time now but I would like to see him given one more year to right the ship with the new crop of players on the DL

    Kittle? Are you serious Bob? Hiring a guy with no D-1 experience? This guy should not even be here and our TEs don't even exist in this offense plus you have him coaching OT's as well? Hire the best, not your freaking buddies!!! Bob has to grow a pair here and cut ties with a friend

    Kish did what this year? We didn't even play LBs, how did they regress so freaking badly that we didn't even hardly play them? Nelson, Wort, Franklin, Shannon all have been phased out for the most part in our 6 DB schemes. Nelson and Wort are entering their senior seasons with a lot of question marks about playing time

    Patton's G/C/G group got dominated once again and we haven't had a consistent run game since the 2008 season, it's been abysmal...this year showed some improvement against Big 12 competition but against any team with a good or better DL we got pushed around and shut down

    Heupel has to show improvement as well, he has improved but going into his 3rd year on the job he has to show he has a better grasp on what's going on in the game and to make better calls. (3rd and 1 after Millard ran for 7 yards and we go for a pass to go 3 and out against A&M the other night...momentum killer to start the 2nd half)
    To that point.. this year, both ND and A&M often lined up in a 3-3 front on downs where running the ball still should be an option (2nd and 8, 3rd and 3, et). So basically they lined up in a heavy pass formation and yet we still could not run the ball one bit.

  8. #8
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    This staff doesn’t evaluate players very well and it’s becoming more apparent that they do not develop players very well at certain positions.

    This staff doesn’t make enough good in game adjustments.

    We could not even run on A&M against a 3 man D line and we haven’t had many good run blocking linemen in years in part due to high OL attrition rates…… It’s time to replace Jerry Schmidt.
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  9. #9
    I'm ready to hear Bob say that "changes are coming" (which he won't say), or he needs to step down. This staff is NOT getting it done and anyone who thinks differently is crazy. We are going to be mediocre at best for a while, it will take time to right this ship and even longer if Stoops continues to be set in his ways.

  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by OU48A View Post
    This staff doesn’t evaluate players very well and it’s becoming more apparent that they do not develop players very well at certain positions.

    This staff doesn’t make enough good in game adjustments.

    We could not even run on A&M against a 3 man D line and we haven’t had many good run blocking linemen in years in part due to high OL attrition rates…… It’s time to replace Jerry Schmidt.
    I don't think it's fair to say they don't evaluate players well. Hell, I think that actually might be their strong point. The problem is that if they happen to be wrong, or the kid turns out to be an epic bust then we are left where we are now. I love under the radar kids, but what I love even more is a known commodity like a 5* kid that dominates everyone.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by EastSideSooners View Post
    I'm ready to hear Bob say that "changes are coming" (which he won't say), or he needs to step down. This staff is NOT getting it done and anyone who thinks differently is crazy. We are going to be mediocre at best for a while, it will take time to right this ship and even longer if Stoops continues to be set in his ways.
    Changes are not coming. The past three staff hires are an indication of that. Kittle, Mike, Kish. I think Mike was a good hire. Kittle and Kish were ridiculous hires. We could have gone after some youth and some guys with proven track records as superlative recruiters, but instead we brought in two Stoops cronies. The only way that changes are going to come is if Bob's hand is absolutely forced. That's not going to happen unless we absolutely fall off of a cliff and start firing out 5-7's. That's why I say it would be best for OU if Bob moved on to a different job. However, I think we are past the point where that is ever going to happen. Bob is making upwards of $5 million per year, living in Norman, Oklahoma. Who is going to pay him more than that? We're really stuck in a rut here and I just don't see any way out of it.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by EastSideSooners View Post
    I'm ready to hear Bob say that "changes are coming" (which he won't say), or he needs to step down. This staff is NOT getting it done and anyone who thinks differently is crazy. We are going to be mediocre at best for a while, it will take time to right this ship and even longer if Stoops continues to be set in his ways.
    We will be mediocre until this staff is updated or gone. Bob will never fire anyone because that would be admitting he made a mistake.....

  13. #13

    Staff effort in recruiting

    Originally Posted by zevogolf View Post
    We will be mediocre until this staff is updated or gone. Bob will never fire anyone because that would be admitting he made a mistake.....
    Well he did essentially fire Willie Martinez, but that's 1 guy in 14 years.

  14. #14
    Somebody in the media needs to get an interview with Bob and ask him WTF is going on and stop being so scared of him, this is a TREND and the program is NOT in good shape.

  15. #15
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    What is the avg lifespan of our assistants? You guys make it sound like assistants just come here to die.

    Here is a list off he top of my head of guys that have come and gone.
    Leach
    Mangino
    Long
    Wilson
    Chris Wilson
    Spurrier Jr
    Sumlin
    Pelini
    Willie Martinez
    Littrell

    There are more, I am sure...bet we avg turning over a position a year. That is not stagnation.

    BJW doing special teams this year was a HUGE improvement.

    The only guy that I would agree on is Shipp...and part of his problem is probably, to some extent, being forced into certain philosophies by game planning.

    Our DLine played contain for much of the last half of the season, did very little twisting and stunting, and was discouraged from utilizing ends to move upfield. It's hard for a unit to shine in such scenarios.
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  16. #16
    The Kittle hire is so absurd it is comical. Look at the guy's work history prior to landing a full-time paid coaching gig at one of the top 10 schools in FBS. The fact that our administration greenlit that hire tells you about everything you need to know about how bad our current situation is. If we're waiting for somebody to stand up to Bob and start asking him some hard questions about what is going on, we're going to be waiting awhile.
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    Originally Posted by mgsooner View Post
    Well he did essentially fire Willie Martinez, but that's 1 guy in 14 years.
    Pretty sure he also essentially fired Long, BV, and possibly Mangino (least likely)
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    Originally Posted by madbrad View Post
    I don't think it's fair to say they don't evaluate players well. Hell, I think that actually might be their strong point. The problem is that if they happen to be wrong, or the kid turns out to be an epic bust then we are left where we are now. I love under the radar kids, but what I love even more is a known commodity like a 5* kid that dominates everyone.
    If it’s not the X’s and O’s and it’s the Jimmy’s and Joe’s as many have said, it boils down to whom OU recruits.
    OU can’t sign every top recruit, but OU still has many choices.
    OU has had plenty of 2 & 3 star recruits who have turned into All Americans….. Those were good evaluations and are always a huge key to OU success.
    Clearly OU’s talent level is down and in part it’s due to poor evaluations.

  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by mgsooner View Post
    The Kittle hire is so absurd it is comical. Look at the guy's work history prior to landing a full-time paid coaching gig at one of the top 10 schools in FBS. The fact that our administration greenlit that hire tells you about everything you need to know about how bad our current situation is. If we're waiting for somebody to stand up to Bob and start asking him some hard questions about what is going on, we're going to be waiting awhile.
    I agree, to an extent, but I believe Kittle was instrumental in some of our recruiting victories.

  20. #20
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    Originally Posted by zcaa0g View Post
    It's baffling how Oklahoma apparently doesn't have any DTs or DEs.
    Or linebackers. Or offensive linemen. Or kickers. Or tight ends.

  21. #21
    Originally Posted by mgsooner View Post
    Changes are not coming. The past three staff hires are an indication of that. Kittle, Mike, Kish. I think Mike was a good hire. Kittle and Kish were ridiculous hires. We could have gone after some youth and some guys with proven track records as superlative recruiters, but instead we brought in two Stoops cronies. The only way that changes are going to come is if Bob's hand is absolutely forced. That's not going to happen unless we absolutely fall off of a cliff and start firing out 5-7's. That's why I say it would be best for OU if Bob moved on to a different job. However, I think we are past the point where that is ever going to happen. Bob is making upwards of $5 million per year, living in Norman, Oklahoma. Who is going to pay him more than that? We're really stuck in a rut here and I just don't see any way out of it.
    All Bob is doing now is brazenly bringing his buddies to the cash buffet that is University of Oklahoma athletics. Even when they have zero experience, he hires them and uses the program as a career management center. He's very "in your face" with it in fact and has been for years. Why morons keep going around waiting for Bob to announce that "changes need to be made" is beyond me. It's right there in our faces. He's not hiding it and hasn't been for years. I mean c'mon! Kittle? Kish? And any time his performance is questioned, you hear him, and all his buddies in lock step, point to "all those Big XII championships" just like he did after the aTm loss (and just like Venables did when he was under fire). It's right there in front of your faces people. Why do you keep expecting Bob to announce changes? That would basically require him to 1. indict himself of neglect and 2. force him to destroy the pajama party culture he has built over the years by hiring his buddies.
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  22. #22
    Originally Posted by SpankyNek View Post
    I agree, to an extent, but I believe Kittle was instrumental in some of our recruiting victories.
    ask yourself this: have our OT's played better since he's been here? and what purpose does having him be a TE coach when we have no TE presence?

    you could also those questions to Kish as well but he's only been here one season and it might be too early to judge on him

  23. #23
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    Originally Posted by SpankyNek View Post
    I agree, to an extent, but I believe Kittle was instrumental in some of our recruiting victories.
    lmao. which victories would those be?
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    Originally Posted by greensooner View Post
    ask yourself this: have our OT's played better since he's been here? and what purpose does having him be a TE coach when we have no TE presence?

    you could also those questions to Kish as well but he's only been here one season and it might be too early to judge on him
    Yes, and Kittles only been coaching TE Taclkes for two years. The tackles he inherited are either gone or hurt, and the TEs have been eradicated due to graduation and stupidity. If he is the guy responsible for making Lane Johnson a first rd draft pick at OT, it should carry some weight, right?

    How good would a TE have to be to be preferred over having Saunders or Sheppard on the field?

  25. #25
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    Originally Posted by sooner518 View Post
    lmao. which victories would those be?
    Taylor McNamara and Brannon Green...also Heywood (I think)

  26. #26
    [QUOTE= 2. force him to destroy the pajama party culture he has built over the years by hiring his buddies.[/QUOTE]

    A pajama party culture DOES sound kinda fun. Okay, ...back to comisserating.

  27. #27
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    Burn this shit down and start over

  28. #28
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    Originally Posted by SpankyNek View Post
    Pretty sure he also essentially fired Long, BV, and possibly Mangino (least likely)
    I gotta disagree:
    - Chuck Long left to become the head coach at SDSU
    - Mangino left to become the head coach (and buffet buster) an Kansas
    - BV was pretty well forced out... But he did make a, for all intents and purposes, lateral move to Clemson


    Oh damn, we're not like VaTech, now we're f'ing Clemson.... FML
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  29. #29
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    Originally Posted by SoonerSapper View Post
    I gotta disagree:
    - Chuck Long left to become the head coach at SDSU
    - Mangino left to become the head coach (and buffet buster) an Kansas
    - BV was pretty well forced out... But he did make a, for all intents and purposes, lateral move to Clemson


    Oh damn, we're not like VaTech, now we're f'ing Clemson.... FML
    I know where these guys went...and it was definitely with the blessing of Stoops (I believe it was actually at his request)
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  30. #30
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    Sometimes you have to completely fall on your face to realize what you're doing isn't right. OU and Stoops aren't falling on their face, but tripping along.

    Bob's comments about "our goals every year are to win the Big 12" are equivalent to those of TCU. I doubt Bama gives a shit that they didn't win the SEC last year. The won the important title. Bob wants to dominate his little part of the college landscape, and we see that in our performances in bowls and against top teams.

    I want them to fix our slipping and win games simultaneously, but no one will "get it" if they continue to win their little part of the world (i.e., the Big 12) and falter in the bowl games.

  31. #31
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    Staff effort in recruiting

    Originally Posted by SpankyNek View Post
    I agree, to an extent, but I believe Kittle was instrumental in some of our recruiting victories.
    Before he became a coach? Because the only battle Kittle has won on the recruiting trail has been Taylor McNamara.

  32. #32
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    Originally Posted by mightysooner View Post
    All Bob is doing now is brazenly bringing his buddies to the cash buffet that is University of Oklahoma athletics. Even when they have zero experience, he hires them and uses the program as a career management center. He's very "in your face" with it in fact and has been for years. Why morons keep going around waiting for Bob to announce that "changes need to be made" is beyond me. It's right there in our faces. He's not hiding it and hasn't been for years. I mean c'mon! Kittle? Kish? And any time his performance is questioned, you hear him, and all his buddies in lock step, point to "all those Big XII championships" just like he did after the aTm loss (and just like Venables did when he was under fire). It's right there in front of your faces people. Why do you keep expecting Bob to announce changes? That would basically require him to 1. indict himself of neglect and 2. force him to destroy the pajama party culture he has built over the years by hiring his buddies.

    This made me laugh. I have never heard this phrase before. It also made me sad because it seems true.

  33. #33
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    Originally Posted by oorah_okie View Post
    Before he became a coach? Because the only battle Kittle has won on the recruiting trail has been Taylor McNamara.
    Brannon Green and Heywood as mentioned before. (kittle was hired in 2010 as recruiting coordinator)

  34. #34
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    Staff effort in recruiting

    Originally Posted by SpankyNek View Post
    Brannon Green and Heywood as mentioned before. (kittle was hired in 2010 as recruiting coordinator)
    Didn't see that post. Kittle needs to be re-assigned, we know Bob won't fire him.

  35. #35
    Originally Posted by SpankyNek View Post
    I know where these guys went...and it was definitely with the blessing of Stoops (I believe it was actually at his request)
    here's where you're wrong spanky ... whether stoops forced them out or not, they all got either pay raises at new schools or promoted in position (not willie, willie was canned). the turnover in coaching staff was a great thing because it meant that not only do we develop players, we develop coaches too.

    look at our position coaches now (minus Gundy and maybe Patton). What schools would want Kish, Kittle and BJW? Unlike the mid/early 2000's there is zero market value for these guys.

  36. #36
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    Rather or not it’s true or not there was lots of speculation that both Long and Mangino were at the very least encouraged to take their respective jobs.

  37. #37
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    Originally Posted by DirtySouth_Sooner View Post
    here's where you're wrong spanky ... whether stoops forced them out or not, they all got either pay raises at new schools or promoted in position (not willie, willie was canned). the turnover in coaching staff was a great thing because it meant that not only do we develop players, we develop coaches too.

    look at our position coaches now (minus Gundy and maybe Patton). What schools would want Kish, Kittle and BJW? Unlike the mid/early 2000's there is zero market value for these guys.
    On Kish and Kittle, I believe they are still unproven...however, if you are going to hire them in the first place, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. I will say, honestly, I have no idea how good either coach is or can be because of underutilization of their positions on game day.

    As far as BJW he has very little coaching responsibility, I believe. As a DE coach for a team that can't decide if they want to play three of them at once, or if they want them to advance field positioning, I think there is little for him to dictate. His special teams were the best we've had in quite a while, and some school would take him just for texas recruiting inroads.

  38. #38
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    Originally Posted by OU48A View Post
    Rather or not it’s true or not there was lots of speculation that both Long and Mangino were at the very least encouraged to take their respective jobs.
    Pelini as well.

  39. #39
    If we can fix the on-going multi-year disaster at D-Tackle, we'll be back to competing for more than Big 12 championships. Recruiting busts and drug busts aren't getting it done at that spot. We're recruiting well all over the field, except for that spot and at LB. And a lot of our problems at LB stem from things we're doing with scheme to mask how bad we are at D-Tackle.

    I have no idea how hard the coaching staff is actually working on this. But I think fans would feel better about it if the players who are there, actually appeared to be playing with a high level of intensity week in and week out.

  40. #40
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    Originally Posted by SpankyNek View Post
    Pelini as well.
    YEP

  41. #41
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    On KREF Hale just reported that he has heard from multiple sources that most of the OU players were not very upset about the A&M loss….
    If this is true then this is when you know very major changes are needed!

  42. #42
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    Originally Posted by OU48A View Post
    On KREF Hale just reported that he has heard from multiple sources that most of the OU players were not very upset about the A&M loss….
    If this is true then this is when you know very major changes are needed!
    I really think part of this has to do with attitude trickling down from our fan base.

    Remember how you talked about apathy being a cancer?
    Having the attitude that anything less than a natty is also a cancer. After losing toND, and it was evident that a title was out of the question, why continue to properly prepare...especially if half of your fan base has already deemed you as "pathetic losers"

  43. #43
    Originally Posted by mightysooner View Post
    All Bob is doing now is brazenly bringing his buddies to the cash buffet that is University of Oklahoma athletics. Even when they have zero experience, he hires them and uses the program as a career management center. He's very "in your face" with it in fact and has been for years. Why morons keep going around waiting for Bob to announce that "changes need to be made" is beyond me. It's right there in our faces. He's not hiding it and hasn't been for years. I mean c'mon! Kittle? Kish? And any time his performance is questioned, you hear him, and all his buddies in lock step, point to "all those Big XII championships" just like he did after the aTm loss (and just like Venables did when he was under fire). It's right there in front of your faces people. Why do you keep expecting Bob to announce changes? That would basically require him to 1. indict himself of neglect and 2. force him to destroy the pajama party culture he has built over the years by hiring his buddies.
    Best point yet!

  44. #44
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    Originally Posted by SpankyNek View Post
    I really think part of this has to do with attitude trickling down from our fan base.

    Remember how you talked about apathy being a cancer?
    Having the attitude that anything less than a natty is also a cancer. After losing toND, and it was evident that a title was out of the question, why continue to properly prepare...especially if half of your fan base has already deemed you as "pathetic losers"
    You could be on to something……apathy is like a contagious cancer….. it can spread from the fans to the staff and players.
    As fans we should respectfully show that we care and demand accountability from everyone involved from David Boren on down. There are no excuses for our underachieving ways in recent years.

  45. #45
    Blaming the fans for on the field emotion (and thus performance) is like blaming the customer for food poisoning. Not a single fan called a play, prepared a game plan, coached up a player, recruited a player, devised a scheme...we give money to the school and the program, we don't take money from it. We are not the producers of the product on the field. To think otherwise is desperate "I'm a better fan than you because I don't think Stoops is at fault so na-nanny-boo-boo and by the way it's YOUR fault the players don't care!" self congratulatory chest bumping and public ****ion. Represents a functionally fallacious thought process worthy of little more than ridicule if not outright dismissal for predictable message board dickery.
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  46. #46
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    “United we stand; divided we fall.” ― Aesop

    Oklahoma is a very small state.
    If OU is to be great it requires OU people working harder, smarter, and together and that includes at least some of the fans / bosters.
    The following users like this post: DirtySouth_Sooner


  47. #47
    Originally Posted by OU48A View Post
    On KREF Hale just reported that he has heard from multiple sources that most of the OU players were not very upset about the A&M loss….
    If this is true then this is when you know very major changes are needed!
    Player usually reflect their coaches attitudes about games. If their coaches have a red ass about their poor performance and call them out then they will be upset about. If the coach is apathetic about their performance then they will be also. "Mike Stoops didn't hop and scream. Didn't track down the defender who missed the assignment. Oklahoma's otherwise fiery defensive coordinator simply took his headset off and hung it at his side. He didn't say a word. There was nothing to say."

  48. #48
    The only coach Bob has ever fired was Martinez.

    Pelini had big differences with Venables in scheming and everyone knew Bob was just giving him a job to tide him over anyway. That is an admirable display of friendship and loyalty.

    The rest, for anyone who knows anything, were given the gentle shove out the door by encouragement to get another job. The lone possible exception to that was Magino, but it may include him.

    I think it's going to be another year or two of real disaster before Bob is given an ultimatum to toss some people, no matter who it ends up being. It's going to take a 5-7, 6-6 and little hope on the horizon to get the boosters and the Castilone and Boren to act.

  49. #49
    Originally Posted by SpankyNek View Post
    Taylor McNamara and Brannon Green...also Heywood (I think)
    If none of those 3 contribute to the passing game, do they actually qualify as Kittle's "recruiting victories?"? According to this, those three combined for 3 catches, 45 yards (all Green). My point is, if we aren't using TE's anyway, Kittle needs some bigger recruiting victories to justify his place on this staff.
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  50. #50
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    Originally Posted by Big Red One View Post
    Player usually reflect their coaches attitudes about games. If their coaches have a red ass about their poor performance and call them out then they will be upset about. If the coach is apathetic about their performance then they will be also. "Mike Stoops didn't hop and scream. Didn't track down the defender who missed the assignment. Oklahoma's otherwise fiery defensive coordinator simply took his headset off and hung it at his side. He didn't say a word. There was nothing to say."
    Maybe he knows that no amount of yelling at players who know how to execute better but don't or don't care won't do anything...? When a player(s) continually screw up sometimes you just "give up."

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