Hoover's perspective on the state of Sooner Football

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  1. #1
    SoonerAmongThePack's Avatar
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    Tulsa World Hoover's perspective on the state of Sooner Football

    And I think it's spot on. Kudos to SteveKinevo, who posted this article with his first post but couldn't post the thread.

    http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/spor...SEC%2F54-18464

    As long as Sooners run this kind of offense, elite players — and national titles — will go to 'Bama, SEC

    Watching Oklahoma play on Friday, then watching Alabama play on Monday, it became startlingly clear how far away the Sooners really are from winning another college football national championship.

    As long as Nick Saban is at Alabama, and as long as all those first-round draft picks keep playing on the offensive and defensive lines at the Southeastern Conference’s elite programs — who knows if that’s five years or 10 years or 20? — then the Sooners will be playing for Big 12 titles and access bowls and, once every few years, a spot in the national semifinals, but no further.

    The disparities are that obvious, particularly in coaching philosophy and talent among linemen.

    *continue at the link
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    Last edited by usaosooner; January 9th, 2013 at 12:29 PM. Reason: dont post full articles please

  2. #2
    Saul Good's Avatar
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    Get ready for the "he's a hack" versus the "he's so right" debate.

    Interesting points that make ya think a bit......nothing that hasn't be hashed/rehashed here before though.

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    SoonerAmongThePack's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
    Get ready for the "he's a hack" versus the "he's so right" debate.

    Interesting points that make ya think a bit......nothing that hasn't be hashed/rehashed here before though.
    Totally agree, and while fans and columnists have this debate, one wonders what is ACTUALLY being discussed among the coaches. I would have to hope they see the writing on the wall here because it's about as plain as it could be.
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  4. #4
    Maybe Kevin Sumlin’s up-tempo, ad-lib offense will have continued success in the SEC. If it does, he’ll need those big, talented offensive tackles to come back next year, and he’ll need to find a few more just like them, and fast. And if Sumlin’s offensive scheme does have sustained success, maybe it will germinate throughout the South and SEC powerhouses like Alabama and LSU will evolve away from hard-running offenses with tight ends and fullbacks and slip into something more spread-oriented.
    Sounds familiar.

  5. #5
    I agree with his basic premise about the OU offense. We shouldn't have to resort to this type of offense at OU. It was fine as a surprise in 08 but we haven't won a big game with it.

    Some of his points should be taken with a grain salt. Big time wr's fall from the sky for Bama now? Julio Jones grew up an hour from Bama and now they have freshman that came in 6 years later?
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  6. #6
    Spade1000's Avatar
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    He made great points. Its the defense thats costing us though, and the 2 coordinators , and of course "jimmy & joe"

  7. #7
    Fahooglegods's Avatar
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    Hoover is no friend of the program.

    In all seriousness he is 100% correct. It is what many have been saying since last season.

  8. #8
    soonerbldr's Avatar
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    Hoover's perspective on the state of Sooner Football

    What a great article and it is spot on for the problems we have. We need a new identity but I'm not sure Bob realizes that anymore.

  9. #9
    Fahooglegods's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by soonerbldr View Post
    What a great article and it is spot on for the problems we have. We need a new identity but I'm not sure Bob realizes that anymore.
    It remains to be seen but I am not sure that Bob cares anymore.
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  10. #10
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    Someone email this to Bob and his dumb**** assistants please.
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  11. #11
    gosooner2's Avatar
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    It is interesting to look at the Alabama roster and note that the majority of their players are from Alabama, a state not much bigger than Ok. The "instate players play harder" debate has been done but I think it is interesting to see where they get all these great players.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Spade1000 View Post
    He made great points. Its the defense thats costing us though, and the 2 coordinators , and of course "jimmy & joe"
    The defense didn't cost OU in the KSU and ND games. The offense did. That was 2 of OU's 3 losses this season. As far as the WVU and OSU games, almost doesn't count, OU won those games.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by gosooner2 View Post
    It is interesting to look at the Alabama roster and note that the majority of their players are from Alabama, a state not much bigger than Ok. The "instate players play harder" debate has been done but I think it is interesting to see where they get all these great players.
    There is an astronomical difference in the population of black folks in Alabama versus Oklahoma. Same goes for Louisiana and a number of other "SEC" states.
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    DirtySouth_Sooner's Avatar
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    here's where i disagree. give us bama's offense this year and we don't get close to the NC. give us bama's defense and were right there with the other elite teams. bama has had some elite level running backs to control game tempo but the defense is the reason they've got those crystal balls.

    other than that article states the obvious. bama has better linemen, bama has better recruiting, blah blah ... no shit, i've read about 50 of these already ... everyone knows we are in a slump and we need changes.

    maybe the writer could write a story how obama won the election.
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  15. #15
    Originally Posted by gosooner2 View Post
    It is interesting to look at the Alabama roster and note that the majority of their players are from Alabama, a state not much bigger than Ok. The "instate players play harder" debate has been done but I think it is interesting to see where they get all these great players.
    Don't confuse the marauding masses with facts.

    Fact is Alabama has NFL prospects practically growing on trees within a 4 hour radius of U of A. Meanwhile in Norman you had 3 about 6-7 years ago.

    When you have a Bradford, McCoy and J Gresham continually growing up in your backyard it sure does the job easier

  16. #16
    The problem can be fixed quick. Remember OU's defense before and after Rex Ryan? Remember OU as a team in 1998 and then in 2000? Now whether it can be fixed quickly with this current regime is a question obviously.

  17. #17
    I thought it was Bob and Brent who went to Wilson and talked about the no huddle? Not Josh.

  18. #18
    OU48A's Avatar
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    What we have here is a failure to evaluate….. and develop. Particularly in the trenches.

    Regardless of the scheme, for OU to be good enough to win the NC this OU coaching staff has got to start preforming drastically better recruiting evaluations. Particularly in the trenches.

    The OU staff must develop players with better strength and conditioning methods…and more than anywhere else this is where we need a coaching change.
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  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by DirtySouth_Sooner View Post
    here's where i disagree. give us bama's offense this year and we don't get close to the NC. give us bama's defense and were right there with the other elite teams. bama has had some elite level running backs to control game tempo but the defense is the reason they've got those crystal balls.

    other than that article states the obvious. bama has better linemen, bama has better recruiting, blah blah ... no shit, i've read about 50 of these already ... everyone knows we are in a slump and we need changes.

    maybe the writer could write a story how obama won the election.
    This ^^^^ x infinity

  20. #20
    OU48A's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by zcaa0g View Post
    There is an astronomical difference in the population of black folks in Alabama versus Oklahoma. Same goes for Louisiana and a number of other "SEC" states.
    But yet OU won a national championship as recently as 2000 with 63 Oklahomans on the roster and 12 were starters.
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  21. #21
    Camel at Sea's Avatar
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    The spread offense isn't the problem. Nobody is suggesting that Oregon adopt Alabama's offense. Or Stanford's offense. Texas A&M's spread beat the Tide in Tuscaloosa. We don't run our offense as well as we could, but schematically, you can win a national title with a spread offense. Florida and Auburn both did it in recent years. The one feature those offenses had that ours doesn't (yet) is a QB run game.

    The problem at OU is on defense, and in particular, on the defensive line. Whether that's scheme, talent, or a couple of academic/drug problems at that position in recent years, I don't know. But that's where we need to get better.

  22. #22
    Originally Posted by zcaa0g View Post
    There is an astronomical difference in the population of black folks in Alabama versus Oklahoma. Same goes for Louisiana and a number of other "SEC" states.
    This.

    I lived in Mobile, Alabama, for a few years and more top flight D1 prospects come out of Mobile every year than come out of the entire state of Oklahoma. Mobile has a population of 250K, the state of Oklahoma is between 1.5 and 2 million.

    For instance, Jamarcus Russell and Pat White (WV) were both from Mobile and in 2007 were probably the 2 best QB's in college football.

  23. #23
    SoonerAmongThePack's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DirtySouth_Sooner View Post
    here's where i disagree. give us bama's offense this year and we don't get close to the NC. give us bama's defense and were right there with the other elite teams. bama has had some elite level running backs to control game tempo but the defense is the reason they've got those crystal balls.
    I don't disagree The scheme on defense was just as much an issue this year as the offensive scheme. The question we'll all have to wait to have answered is whether or not Mike Stoops can recruit his type of players and rebuild the dominant defenses he once had.

    So far, we're losing the D-line we need in recruiting to make that happen.

    We're also not doing as well recruiting offensively either, and I thought his point about the OL position conversions and JUCO was well taken.

  24. #24
    Widescreen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OU48A View Post
    Regardless of the scheme, for OU to be good enough to win the NC this OU coaching staff has got to start preforming drastically better recruiting evaluations. Particularly in the trenches.
    Evaluation is only part of the equation. You can be the best evaluator of talent in the nation but if you don't actually convince that talent to show up in Norman, it won't matter. I don't think our talent evaluations have been horrible - we have misses like everyone else. Our ability to get the top notch guys on campus is an issue.
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  25. #25
    OU48A's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AmericanMuscle View Post
    . Mobile has a population of 250K, the state of Oklahoma is between 1.5 and 2 million.
    The United States Census Bureau estimates that the population of Oklahoma
    was 3,814,820 on July 1, 2012

  26. #26
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    Originally Posted by Widescreen View Post
    Evaluation is only part of the equation. You can be the best evaluator of talent in the nation but if you don't actually convince that talent to show up in Norman, it won't matter. I don't think our talent evaluations have been horrible - we have misses like everyone else. Our ability to get the top notch guys on campus is an issue.
    I don't disagree at all....but we can’t really do very well without doing good at both though

  27. #27
    It's not style of play, it's recruiting. OU blocks for runs the same way (inside zone, outside zone, power) but has less talented OL and DL.

    If OU gets guys like Loadholt, Jammal Brown, Tommie Harris, and Gerald McCoy again we will see greater success in Norman.
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  28. #28
    Originally Posted by DirtySouth_Sooner View Post
    here's where i disagree. give us bama's offense this year and we don't get close to the NC. give us bama's defense and were right there with the other elite teams. bama has had some elite level running backs to control game tempo but the defense is the reason they've got those crystal balls.

    other than that article states the obvious. bama has better linemen, bama has better recruiting, blah blah ... no shit, i've read about 50 of these already ... everyone knows we are in a slump and we need changes.

    maybe the writer could write a story how obama won the election.
    The ironic thing about this (and I don't disagree with you) is the Bama offense is very similar to the offense we ran in 2006 with Paul Thompson. We played double TE's and sometimes 3 (jumbo) and forced teams to stop our run game. Then with play action we were able to pass. The games weren't as fun as when we score 60, but we won games. I would argue if we had a better QB, that team running that offense goes undefeated and we play for the NC. I'd love to get back to that scheme, but I gave up on it 2 or 3 years ago.
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  29. #29
    DirtySouth_Sooner's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SoonerAmongThePack View Post
    I don't disagree The scheme on defense was just as much an issue this year as the offensive scheme. The question we'll all have to wait to have answered is whether or not Mike Stoops can recruit his type of players and rebuild the dominant defenses he once had.

    So far, we're losing the D-line we need in recruiting to make that happen.

    We're also not doing as well recruiting offensively either, and I thought his point about the OL position conversions and JUCO was well taken.
    you know ... i wish hoover would have written about what you just posted ... would have been a lot more insightful. my solution is we shit can KISH and higher back our ole buddy Gary Gibbs as CO-D; he's on the market now.
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  30. #30
    Originally Posted by OU48A View Post
    The United States Census Bureau estimates that the population of Oklahoma
    was 3,814,820 on July 1, 2012
    Wow! According to wikipedia, Mobile's metro area pop is app 420K but if you include the towns across the bay (Spanish Fort, Daphne, Fairhope, and others) it jumps to 590K. Still a flash in the pan compared to the entire state of OKlahoma.

  31. #31
    The problem with our offense is that we are trying to force a square peg through a round hole. We have basicly turned intoa texas tech type offense , no te, soft olineman who are basicly beefed up tes, no attitude, no push just basketball on grass.
    Problem is Josh wants to run the ball(which I agree on) problem is we dont have the personale to do that.

    they want to talk about our YPC running the ball, but heck we cant even pick up a third and short without brining ina completely different formation.(bell dozer)

    Texas tech backs averaged a crazy high YPC but they had to pick their spots, they werent running on anyone if teams knew they were going to run th ball, they did it by smoke and mirrors.....just like we do.

    Even in 08 multiple high draft picks on the oline, great nfl back (DM) , heisman winning qb.......and we STILL strufggled running the ball in shortyardage .
    We had TWO 1000 yard rushers but we still sucked in short yardage.

  32. #32
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    *starts drinking heavily*
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  33. #33
    Meni's Avatar
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    "Somewhere in the past four years, elite offensive linemen stopped coming to OU. Two of the Sooners’ starters this season were converted tight ends. Same on the defensive line."

    that's all I needed to read

  34. #34
    drspencer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DirtySouth_Sooner;1030905[B
    ]here's where i disagree. give us bama's offense this year and we don't get close to the NC. give us bama's defense and were right there with the other elite teams. bama has had some elite level running backs to control game tempo but the defense is the reason they've got those crystal balls.[/B]

    other than that article states the obvious. bama has better linemen, bama has better recruiting, blah blah ... no shit, i've read about 50 of these already ... everyone knows we are in a slump and we need changes.

    maybe the writer could write a story how obama won the election.
    Agree. Defense wins championships. Our offense no matter how gimicky was and is good enough to win the thing. I will admit that I would like to see a better run game and get our QB under center. It's about the D not being able to get pressure, shut guys down, and tackle well.

  35. #35
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    Originally Posted by AmericanMuscle View Post
    Wow! According to wikipedia, Mobile's metro area pop is app 420K but if you include the towns across the bay (Spanish Fort, Daphne, Fairhope, and others) it jumps to 590K. Still a flash in the pan compared to the entire state of OKlahoma.

    Alabama population 2012 est was 4,822,023

  36. #36
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    Originally Posted by DirtySouth_Sooner View Post
    here's where i disagree. give us bama's offense this year and we don't get close to the NC. give us bama's defense and were right there with the other elite teams. bama has had some elite level running backs to control game tempo but the defense is the reason they've got those crystal balls.

    other than that article states the obvious. bama has better linemen, bama has better recruiting, blah blah ... no shit, i've read about 50 of these already ... everyone knows we are in a slump and we need changes.

    maybe the writer could write a story how obama won the election.
    I WANT CRYSTAL BALLS!!!

  37. #37
    drspencer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Meni View Post
    "Somewhere in the past four years, elite offensive linemen stopped coming to OU. Two of the Sooners’ starters this season were converted tight ends. Same on the defensive line."

    that's all I needed to read
    Except one of those converted tight ends may end up going in the first round of the draft.

  38. #38
    Originally Posted by Drake View Post
    I agree with his basic premise about the OU offense. We shouldn't have to resort to this type of offense at OU. It was fine as a surprise in 08 but we haven't won a big game with it.

    Some of his points should be taken with a grain salt. Big time wr's fall from the sky for Bama now? Julio Jones grew up an hour from Bama and now they have freshman that came in 6 years later?
    What we did in 2008 is NOT what we're doing today. Yes, they ran the spread. Yes, they ran the hurry up. They also lined up in the I-formation and ran downhill. They would go 2 TE set and hammer on one play, then run up and split Gresham out and go 3 wides creating mismatches all over the place. We don't do that today, even when we want to try and run power its out of the gun/pistol and maybe diamond. We don't create the mismatches with this flavor of offense.
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  39. #39
    Originally Posted by OU48A View Post
    But yet OU won a national championship as recently as 2000 with 63 Oklahomans on the roster and 12 were starters.
    True, but that was a very special team and the exception to the rule. I actually wish OU would go back to that offensive philosophy since OU's offensive personnel is still more geared toward that.

  40. #40
    Originally Posted by Meni View Post
    "Somewhere in the past four years, elite offensive linemen stopped coming to OU. Two of the Sooners’ starters this season were converted tight ends. Same on the defensive line."

    that's all I needed to read
    The converted TE comment is just a bullshit thought.. however, that great lineman have stopped coming to OU is right on the mark.

  41. #41
    Originally Posted by xunil View Post
    What we did in 2008 is NOT what we're doing today. Yes, they ran the spread. Yes, they ran the hurry up. They also lined up in the I-formation and ran downhill. They would go 2 TE set and hammer on one play, then run up and split Gresham out and go 3 wides creating mismatches all over the place. We don't do that today, even when we want to try and run power its out of the gun/pistol and maybe diamond. We don't create the mismatches with this flavor of offense.
    It's the same basic scheme, the personnel isn't as capable though on the OL and at TE. If you swapped OL and Gresham IMO you'd have 2008-esque results.

  42. #42
    While Hoover has a point that OU is not n on some of the big linemen I'm not sure that it is a scheme problem.
    A) You can run out of the Spread offense. The Sooners did it with Quinten Griffin, Adrian Peterson in '04 and '05, and Chris Brown and Demarco Murray '07 - '10. (Although '09 and '10 at times was pretty hard to watch. You just have to set your mind to it and run the ball. I have not been a fan of how this O-Line plays since James Patton has shown up. What I can tell you is that an O-Line coach has to make you nasty, however it has to be done he should be able to make you nasty. I have yet to see a James Patton O-Line just plain nasty. Case in point is the '08 national title game. I feel had a Tony Wise, Merv Johnson or even a Mark Mangino been the Oline coach there would not have been a goal line stand. As a matter of fact Since Patton has been the O-Line coach the Sooners have been goal line standed by the likes of Idaho State and Utah State to name a pair. Josh Heupel needs to undersrtand that just because you are in the spread you don't have to throw the ball 50 times a game either.

    B) Landry Jones is not and was not Sam Bradford. Bradford was great for a full game of no huddle hurry up and make it happen offense. Jones seemed to take quarters off. One drive the dude looked like no one could be on the same field with him and the next drive you weren't for sure if he was the same player. Ii never understood how Jones simply received a free pass the 3 years following 2009 with no competition of any kind. In Jones 4 years at OU he orchestrated 211 Touchdown drives but only 50 were in the second half. I think LJ would clearly have benefitted from a huddle up version of the spread and maybe coming out at different times in a game with the no huddle. Especially in the Red zone where he really fell off target.

    C) "This isn’t the same Oklahoma for which Peterson signed up. Peterson nearly won the Heisman as a freshman even though he had a sixth-year senior quarterback who set school passing records and won the Heisman himself the year before. He almost ran for 2,000 yards just one year removed from high school.

    No, those kinds of players don’t pick Oklahoma any more."

    Two things I'lll state here. First I do not follow high school recruiting and how many stars or glitter on the construction paper of jigabyts they have. However what I do know is that since 2003 there has not been a High School running Back like Adrian Peterson. I say that to qualify this next statement. If you are going to write that statement than you probably ought to know that Sooner commit Kieth Ford has been labeled the best RB in the country and by others one of the top 5.

    Issues with Hoover is when you can write a story that is "somewhat substantively" correct he tends to use instances or situations to back himself up which are completely wrong.

    By the way. The SEC will have to change the way the play defense against Texas A&M and much like the Big 12 when Bob came in I bet you see more schools going spread in that conference in the near future.

    Are there things that OU needs to change? Heck yeah, a blind man can see it in a minute. But scrapping the spread is not one of them. Tweaking the spread is a better a way of doing it.
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  43. #43
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    Originally Posted by drspencer View Post
    Except one of those converted tight ends may end up going in the first round of the draft.
    and the other 4 guys on the line?

  44. #44
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    Originally Posted by drspencer View Post
    Agree. Defense wins championships. Our offense no matter how gimicky was and is good enough to win the thing. I will admit that I would like to see a better run game and get our QB under center. It's about the D not being able to get pressure, shut guys down, and tackle well.
    I think we lack the players to execute the type of defense that would get us closer to being a top 5 team (we're top 15, now). And your point about the offense is well taken, or should be. I don't think offense is really the problem. We could stand to play a little more man ball. Keith Ford may help us with that. And I'd like to see some bigger WRs who can create mismatches against the opponent's D. We don't have WRs that can really create mismatches. If Bama is the prototype, their CBs are bigger than and just as fast as our WRs. That's bad.

    As a summary, I'm bored with the 5'10" - 6'1" WRs, barely 6'2" DTs who might weigh 300lbs, LBs who aren't as athletic as the opponent's ****ing TE and pack less of a punch than the oncoming RBs, and O lineman who don't block the opposing defender into the god damn ground.

    Performance = ability (talent) x motivation (attitude). OU lacks some talent and the "I'm going to **** you up" attitude.

  45. #45
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    Originally Posted by zcaa0g View Post
    True, but that was a very special team and the exception to the rule. I actually wish OU would go back to that offensive philosophy since OU's offensive personnel is still more geared toward that.
    Part of the reason it was so special was that it had so many Oklahomans on the roster who gave more than a normal shit about OU’s fortunes compared to a team full of national recruits.
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  46. #46
    drspencer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Meni View Post
    and the other 4 guys on the line?
    They have 2 converted TE as OL players. 1 of which is good enough to be drafted high and the other may make a team. So if the 2 they converted are NFL guys how can you be pissed that they converted them? Even on OU's best lines they might have had 3 of the 5 guys go in the draft and more often then not the majority of them were not drafted very high. So if these "true" OL players are being drafted lower than converted TEs are your assessment is wrong.

  47. #47
    Originally Posted by S11-Baylor View Post
    It's the same basic scheme, the personnel isn't as capable though on the OL and at TE. If you swapped OL and Gresham IMO you'd have 2008-esque results.
    No, its really not the same basic scheme. We didn't pistol in 2008, didn't really diamond much except at the end of the year.. when we wanted to run power we ran out of the I. We put the QB under center 40% of the time (50% of the time his 1st year as starter).
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  48. #48
    Can somebody tell me the last team to win a National Championship running a fast paced, up tempo offense?

    The biggest problem I see is the change in mentality with our offense. There is a HUGE difference in run blocking vs pass blocking. Run blocking is as much attitude as it is aptitude. Run blocking brings out the "nasty" in a team. It breaks the other team's will in a way dink and dunk pass patterns never will. Fact is we run a mamby pamby offense and that has become our identity. It shows in our inability to run the ball consistently (especially in short yardage situations) and imo has even permeated through the defense. We obviously are not as talented on the defensive side of the ball and that problem has been exacerbated by asking them to play more snaps due to the nature of our offense. We have become the Texas Tech teams we used to make fun of. Go back and watch the 200 MNC game. We hurt people, we had swagger. Which one of our players would have had the balls to tell Weinke "he had his boys trophy and we're taking it back"?
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  49. #49
    Originally Posted by OU48A View Post
    Alabama population 2012 est was 4,822,023
    Very good. Now go back and read my post again. I was talking about the Mobile metro area which has more D1 prospects each year than the entire state of Oklahoma.

  50. #50
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    Hoover's perspective on the state of Sooner Football

    Originally Posted by SoonerDan74012 View Post
    Someone email this to Bob and his dumb**** assistants please.
    I'm sure their inboxes are already stuffed with angry emails from the mouthbreather legions.

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