Bad ass english teacher

Posted 590 day(s) ago by okie522959 Views 124 Replies
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  1. #51
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    Originally Posted by Dexa View Post
    Except that the school has effectively said "teach something controversial and get the boot." Kind of a shitty approach to critical thinking really.
    Critical thinking....LOL

  2. #52
    Originally Posted by Dexa View Post
    Except that the school has effectively said "teach something controversial and get the boot." Kind of a shitty approach to critical thinking really.
    Stomping on a flag doesn't teach kids to think critically. The majority of kids already have little respect for things and have no issue tearing stuff up.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Bad ass english teacher

    Non story

  4. #54
    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    They can do what they want to do, largely, but to punish and fire someone for an expression covered by the First Amendment is just as distasteful, if not more, than his actual expression (also distasteful).
    no it's not!!!!

  5. #55
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    "Students said they weren’t sure what the point of the demonstration was, according to WISTV 10 in South Carolina."

    Shocking.


    erm.. my book report was on fahrenheit 451.. this was a good book... it's about how hot it is at 451 degrees, fahrenheit of course (smug ass look)

  6. #56
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    Originally Posted by oucub23 View Post
    Stomping on a flag doesn't teach kids to think critically. The majority of kids already have little respect for things and have no issue tearing stuff up.
    Okay cool.. but let's make sure we protect those kids in southern california who took down the American flag and replaced it with the Mexican one. THOSE little ****ers have rights mang.



    edit: And I'm not going to say I know what his actual lesson was, but depending on what it was.. that's exactly what it would teach.

  7. #57
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    Originally Posted by Dexa View Post
    "Students said they weren’t sure what the point of the demonstration was, according to WISTV 10 in South Carolina."

    Shocking.


    erm.. my book report was on fahrenheit 451.. this was a good book... it's about how hot it is at 451 degrees, fahrenheit of course (smug ass look)
    They're obviously not critical thinkers...maybe setting the school library on fire would be a better example.

  8. #58
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    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    They're obviously not critical thinkers...maybe setting the school library on fire would be a better example.
    Only if it reached 451. clearly.

  9. #59
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    Originally Posted by Dexa View Post
    Only if it reached 451. clearly.
    Indeed.

  10. #60
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    Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    Looks like my assumption was correct.
    That it does.

  11. #61
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    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    This teacher could have merely told his class that "he could legally stomp on the flag" and I doubt any action would have been taken against him even though the subject had little to with his English class. Many would feel the actual stomping or burning of the flag would be a "vulgarity". Employees have codes of conduct whether they are state or private.

    I would be interested in seeing the consequences of an employee of say Chesapeake or Devon being televised burning a flag on the workplace during working hours.
    Private company v. public employer. You don't have a right to burn flags at your private employer's office. Teachers do have First Amendment rights to varying degrees in relation to their government entity employer.


    I'm not saying the guy is a genius or anything. Clearly a bit of a dipshit. But I love America, and in America, the government isn't supposed to punish you for political statements. (That's an oversimplification of actual case law, but you know what I mean.)

  12. #62
    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    Indeed.
    just because one dumbazz kid didn't comprehend the lesson.....doesn't mean the teacher doesn't know/understand the 1st amendment

  13. #63
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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    Private company v. public employer. You don't have a right to burn flags at your private employer's office. Teachers do have First Amendment rights to varying degrees in relation to their government entity employer.


    I'm not saying the guy is a genius or anything. Clearly a bit of a dipshit. But I love America, and in America, the government isn't supposed to punish you for political statements. (That's an oversimplification of actual case law, but you know what I mean.)
    A. He wasn't making a political statement.
    B. He wasnt punished by the government.

    Not a First Amendment issue, and not even newsworthy when you really think about it.

  14. #64
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    just because one dumbazz kid didn't comprehend the lesson
    Assumption

    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    .....doesn't mean the teacher doesn't know/understand the 1st amendment
    Sounds like he doesn't.

  15. #65
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    Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    A. He wasn't making a political statement.
    B. He wasnt punished by the government.

    Not a First Amendment issue, and not even newsworthy when you really think about it.
    Getting fired by your government job for what amounts to free speech is PUNISHMENT. That's like, really simple and stuff, and it is arguably free speech. There's an entire line of case law regarding what constitutes teacher-in-school free speech as protected by the First Amendment.

  16. #66
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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    Getting fired by your government job for what amounts to free speech is PUNISHMENT. That's like, really simple and stuff, and it is arguably free speech. There's an entire line of case law regarding what constitutes teacher-in-school free speech as protected by the First Amendment.
    You usually come pretty strong but I am finding too many weasel words in your take on this one to be convinced. "what amounts to free speech"? "arguably free speech"?, this after the apparently now abandoned assertion that he was fired for a political statement?

    The school isnt the government and he was fired for being unprofessional. Again, back to my earlier question that you ignored. Would you support the school's right to fire him if he wrote "God hates s" on his blackboard?

  17. #67
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    just because one dumbazz kid didn't comprehend the lesson.....doesn't mean the teacher doesn't know/understand the 1st amendment
    But that teacher telling your kids that they are s is protected by the 1st amendment?

    Evidently the school administrators disagree with your assessment.

  18. #68
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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    Private company v. public employer. You don't have a right to burn flags at your private employer's office. Teachers do have First Amendment rights to varying degrees in relation to their government entity employer.


    I'm not saying the guy is a genius or anything. Clearly a bit of a dipshit. But I love America, and in America, the government isn't supposed to punish you for political statements. (That's an oversimplification of actual case law, but you know what I mean.)
    So a state employee has the right to burn a flag on state property while on duty?

  19. #69
    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    But that teacher telling your kids that they are s is protected by the 1st amendment?

    Evidently the school administrators disagree with your assessment.
    i don't know why you're arguing with me......i never once said the teacher is protected by anything wrt his job....
    he used a dramatic approach to teaching a lesson that pissed off his superintendent......and it cost him his job....
    the superintendent will prolly now hire someone that teaches boring lessons from the book that put students to sleep.......my hero...

  20. #70
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    i don't know why you're arguing with me......i never once said the teacher is protected by anything wrt his job....
    he used a dramatic approach to teaching a lesson that pissed off his superintendent......and it cost him his job....
    the superintendent will prolly now hire someone that teaches boring lessons from the book that put students to sleep.......my hero...
    Better than keeping the guy who teaches them factually incorrect things like "defacing symbols carries no consequences". They should be taught that everything they do or say has consequences to one degree or another, since that is, you know, reality.

  21. #71
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    He hasn't been fired yet. Just suspended.

  22. #72
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    i don't know why you're arguing with me......i never once said the teacher is protected by anything wrt his job....
    he used a dramatic approach to teaching a lesson that pissed off his superintendent......and it cost him his job....
    the superintendent will prolly now hire someone that teaches boring lessons from the book that put students to sleep.......my hero...
    And here I thought you were saying his actions were protected.

  23. #73
    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    And here I thought you were saying his actions were protected.
    nope...never said that......
    if i did.....it was miscommunication on my part...
    i don't think he should have been suspended......but the superintendent/school board can do what they want....

  24. #74
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    Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    You usually come pretty strong but I am finding too many weasel words in your take on this one to be convinced. "what amounts to free speech"? "arguably free speech"?, this after the apparently now abandoned assertion that he was fired for a political statement?

    The school isnt the government and he was fired for being unprofessional. Again, back to my earlier question that you ignored. Would you support the school's right to fire him if he wrote "God hates s" on his blackboard?
    They're not weasel words. The law isn't black and white on this issue. But getting fired/suspended without pay would almost certainly be considered a punishment under a Free Speech analysis.

    And the school IS the government. A teacher's First Amendment rights to free speech are protected from the school's actions in some cases.

    Why do you think the First Amendment vis-a-vis freedom of religion is such a big deal in schools? Because public schools are a venue in which the First Amendment may be invoked. Religion or speech, either one.

    And I didn't ignore your question, I already answered it: that's vulgarity. Vulgarity (at least vulgarity without any redeeming quality, like being classic art or something similar) isn't going to be tolerated at all. That type of speech wouldn't be considered protected.

  25. #75
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    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    So a state employee has the right to burn a flag on state property while on duty?
    Multiple problems with that:
    1. School could fire you for using your paid time on the job to go make political stunts/statements.
    2. Lighting fires on school property without permission would be a problem.
    3. The disruption of the school probably would outweigh the guy's right to burn a flag and that expression likely wouldn't be protected.


    The more intriguing question is: what if he got fired for burning a flag in his front yard on the weekend?

  26. #76
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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    They're not weasel words. The law isn't black and white on this issue. But getting fired/suspended without pay would almost certainly be considered a punishment under a Free Speech analysis.

    And the school IS the government. A teacher's First Amendment rights to free speech are protected from the school's actions in some cases.

    Why do you think the First Amendment vis-a-vis freedom of religion is such a big deal in schools? Because public schools are a venue in which the First Amendment may be invoked. Religion or speech, either one.

    And I didn't ignore your question, I already answered it: that's vulgarity. Vulgarity (at least vulgarity without any redeeming quality, like being classic art or something similar) isn't going to be tolerated at all. That type of speech wouldn't be considered protected.
    Religion in schools is an example of first amendment rights? I'd say it was much more of an example of how the 1st amendment was restricted. Even if a teacher knew that all of his students were Christians and attended his church he couldn't lead them during class time in the Lord's Prayer. He probably can't teach creationism even if he believes it to be true.

    Vulgarity is certainly in the eye of the beholder. Stomping on the flag vs saying **** America would both be saying the same thing to me.

    You obviously believe that this teacher's 1st amendment rights supersede the school's authority to punish his conduct in this case. I don't know enough about what a teacher's code of conduct would cover to determine if his behavior was inappropriate/punishable. The school, however, seems to believe it was punishable. I won't weep for this guy.

  27. #77
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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    Multiple problems with that:
    1. School could fire you for using your paid time on the job to go make political stunts/statements.
    2. Lighting fires on school property without permission would be a problem.
    3. The disruption of the school probably would outweigh the guy's right to burn a flag and that expression likely wouldn't be protected.


    The more intriguing question is: what if he got fired for burning a flag in his front yard on the weekend?
    Yeah, how you use your time while on the clock should be something the employer controls.

    What an employee does on his own time and property would be an area where I would expect the employer to have much less control (as long as it is legal).

  28. #78
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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    They're not weasel words. The law isn't black and white on this issue. But getting fired/suspended without pay would almost certainly be considered a punishment under a Free Speech analysis.

    And the school IS the government. A teacher's First Amendment rights to free speech are protected from the school's actions in some cases.

    Why do you think the First Amendment vis-a-vis freedom of religion is such a big deal in schools? Because public schools are a venue in which the First Amendment may be invoked. Religion or speech, either one.

    And I didn't ignore your question, I already answered it: that's vulgarity. Vulgarity (at least vulgarity without any redeeming quality, like being classic art or something similar) isn't going to be tolerated at all. That type of speech wouldn't be considered protected.
    Anything could be considered vulgarity, like stomping on a flag. And no, the school isnt the government.

  29. #79
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    Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    Anything could be considered vulgarity, like stomping on a flag. And no, the school isnt the government.
    This isn't Sancho's opinion hour. This is like, law and stuff. It's out there, operating without you even knowing. Public school is an extension of the government. Why do you think there are so many issues with school prayer? If the school isn't the government, then you could pray all you want, right?


    And no, not anything can be considered vulgarity.

    You're just arguing to argue.

  30. #80
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    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    Religion in schools is an example of first amendment rights? I'd say it was much more of an example of how the 1st amendment was restricted. Even if a teacher knew that all of his students were Christians and attended his church he couldn't lead them during class time in the Lord's Prayer. He probably can't teach creationism even if he believes it to be true.

    Vulgarity is certainly in the eye of the beholder. Stomping on the flag vs saying **** America would both be saying the same thing to me.

    You obviously believe that this teacher's 1st amendment rights supersede the school's authority to punish his conduct in this case. I don't know enough about what a teacher's code of conduct would cover to determine if his behavior was inappropriate/punishable. The school, however, seems to believe it was punishable. I won't weep for this guy.
    I never said that. I'd need to study a lot of case law to form my own full opinion. Legally, the teacher does have some free speech rights in school in relation to his employer. But as to your syntax, if he indeed is exercising a protected right, he shouldn't be punished.

    Personally, I just think it's sad that, instead of making it a teachable moment for all involved, they immediately punish the guy that was trying to teach a lesson. He did it in different classes throughout the day, so I don't think he was just going off on a crazed rant. It's hard enough to get through to kids these days; perhaps he was just trying to be memorable.

  31. #81
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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    I never said that. I'd need to study a lot of case law to form my own full opinion. Legally, the teacher does have some free speech rights in school in relation to his employer. But as to your syntax, if he indeed is exercising a protected right, he shouldn't be punished.

    Personally, I just think it's sad that, instead of making it a teachable moment for all involved, they immediately punish the guy that was trying to teach a lesson. He did it in different classes throughout the day, so I don't think he was just going off on a crazed rant. It's hard enough to get through to kids these days; perhaps he was just trying to be memorable.

    Originally Posted by KCRuf/Nek
    Cue the union, the ACLU, and whoever else to get this pos his job back.
    Originally Posted by OUMallen
    hope they do. It's the First ****ing Amendment.
    I just took it from your post that you thought his 1st amendment rights were covering his behavior.

    The guy was an honors English teacher so this would not be "course material". It would seem that he was displaying his political activism rather than anything relevant to his course.

  32. #82
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    "Anti-American liberal should be deported for stomping on our American flag."

    Yeah, because expressing your freedom is SO un-American.

  33. #83
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    Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    He thought there were no consequences for defacing symbols. Where would that come from other than a general nebulous idea of "Free Speech"?

    Here... let me rephrase.. Its ironic because he got fired for defacing a symbol while teaching his students that there are no consequences for defacing symbols. That better?
    How do you know that is what he thought? The article states that but it is not a quote. That is more th opinion of the writer, I think. It is possible he was aware of possible consequences but risked it anyway as an act of civil disobedience.

  34. #84
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    Originally Posted by beelzeBob View Post
    "Anti-American liberal should be deported for stomping on our American flag."

    Yeah, because expressing your freedom is SO un-American.
    Is he up for deportation? I thought he was a citizen but, knowing our immigration enforcement policies, that may not be necessary.

  35. #85
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    Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    Interesting since the entire situation started with a lesson on symbols. The word "****" is just as much a symbol as a flag or the action of stomping on a flag. Whether or not they are vulgar is in the eye of the beholder. The word "vulgar" itself being just a symbol for a feeling evoked from exposure to other acts or symbols.
    Why is flag dessicration protected as free speech but vulgarity is not.

  36. #86
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    Surprised that other teachers across the country, in a show of solidarity, haven't stomped on the flag yet.

  37. #87
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    Anyone here with a US flag sticker on their car/truck? If it is faded, guess what? You are desecrating the flag.

  38. #88
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    Originally Posted by beelzeBob View Post
    Why is flag dessicration protected as free speech but vulgarity is not.
    Yes. You don't like free speech?

  39. #89
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    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    Is he up for deportation? I thought he was a citizen but, knowing our immigration enforcement policies, that may not be necessary.
    Dont think so. The quote was in the comment section of his rate my professor page.

  40. #90
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    Originally Posted by okie52 View Post
    I just took it from your post that you thought his 1st amendment rights were covering his behavior.

    The guy was an honors English teacher so this would not be "course material". It would seem that he was displaying his political activism rather than anything relevant to his course.
    I tend to think it was, but as far as current case law goes, it's complicated and I don't know it all off-hand.

  41. #91
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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    Yes. You don't like free speech?
    That was not a yes or no question. I love free speech. Hitler was Jeezus. See... that was fun to say.

  42. #92
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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    I tend to think it was, but as far as current case law goes, it's complicated and I don't know it all off-hand.
    Use of symbols has no place in high school English!

  43. #93
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    Originally Posted by beelzeBob View Post
    Anyone here with a US flag sticker on their car/truck? If it is faded, guess what? You are desecrating the flag.
    Thats a bit of a stretch even for you... I mean, unless you are suggesting that they control the weather and rate of molecular decay etc.. also.. is a sticker a flag? I have a sticker of a unicorn... and I chopped the head off it... does that mean I chopped the head off of a unicorn?

  44. #94
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    Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    Thats a bit of a stretch even for you... I mean, unless you are suggesting that they control the weather and rate of molecular decay etc.. also.. is a sticker a flag? I have a sticker of a unicorn... and I chopped the head off it... does that mean I chopped the head off of a unicorn?
    There are actually official rules about how a flag is to be treated. Displaying the flag in a worn or weatherd fashion is considered desecration. Interestingly, the proper way to dispose of a weathered flag is burning. If it is displayed as a flag it is a flag. Weather or not it is on cloth or a vinyl sticker does not matter.

    http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

    BTW, putting the flag on a football helmut or jersey is bad flag ettiquette.
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  45. #95
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    Originally Posted by beelzeBob View Post
    There are actually official rules about how a flag is to be treated. Displaying the flag in a worn or weatherd fashion is considered desecration. Interestingly, the proper way to dispose of a weathered flag is burning. If it is displayed as a flag it is a flag. Weather or not it is on cloth or a vinyl sticker does not matter.

    http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

    BTW, putting the flag on a football helmut or jersey is bad flag ettiquette.
    Except that a vinyl sticker isnt a flag, just like it isnt a unicorn. Its a picture of a flag.

  46. #96
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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    This isn't Sancho's opinion hour. This is like, law and stuff. It's out there, operating without you even knowing. Public school is an extension of the government. Why do you think there are so many issues with school prayer? If the school isn't the government, then you could pray all you want, right?


    And no, not anything can be considered vulgarity.

    You're just arguing to argue.

    Yes anything can be considered vulgarity. And I wouldnt consider "s" vulgarity.
    Regardless, change the example to "God hates gays" on the blackboard. Can the school fire him?

  47. #97
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    Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    Yes anything can be considered vulgarity. And I wouldnt consider "s" vulgarity.
    Regardless, change the example to "God hates gays" on the blackboard. Can the school fire him?
    The word "pizza" is not vulgar. Stop being ridiculously obtuse and just admit that not EVERYTHING can be considered vulgar in any meaningful sense.

    I'm thinking the guy gets fired, but not for what you're thinking. He gets fired for pushing a religious viewpoint. (And really, these days, he' probably get a grievance process and a warning, but I think we're on the same page by using the shorthand of "getting fired".)

  48. #98
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    Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    Except that a vinyl sticker isnt a flag, just like it isnt a unicorn. Its a picture of a flag.
    That distinction is not made by the Flag Police. To put a representation of a flag on a sticker is desecration. I am not the one who made these rules up. But if you (not you specifically) are going get yer panties in a wad about flag stomping and burning, you really should not have a sticker of the flag on yer car. It is hypocritical.

    Again, a picture of a flag is considered a flag when it comes to the idea of desecration.

  49. #99
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    Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    Yes anything can be considered vulgarity.
    Not in the legal sence.
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    Originally Posted by OUMallen View Post
    The word "pizza" is not vulgar. Stop being ridiculously obtuse and just admit that not EVERYTHING can be considered vulgar in any meaningful sense.

    I'm thinking the guy gets fired, but not for what you're thinking. He gets fired for pushing a religious viewpoint. (And really, these days, he' probably get a grievance process and a warning, but I think we're on the same page by using the shorthand of "getting fired".)
    What if he wrote "I hate gays"?

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