do Christians/Muslims worship the same god?

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  1. #101
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    do Christians/Muslims worship the same god?

    Originally Posted by Teo9969 View Post
    The correct answer is no.

    You can't have Christ be God and proceed to say that Muslims worship that same God. Period. Anybody arguing differently has a horrible grasp of how language, hermeneutics, theology and philosophy work in both theory and reality.

    The term "God of Abraham" on a global level means absolutely nothing.
    Here is the deal. You can argue all you want but Muslims, Jews and Christians religions all originated from the same God that flooded the earth, gave us the 10 commandments and kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden. Agreed?

    Yes the religions and beliefs and traditions are very different but at one time all the ancestors or Christians, Jews and Muslims worshiped as one.

    Just like today the baptist, Methodists, Weslyans, etc all worship differently, have different traditions and many use a vast translation of the bible.

  2. #102
    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    Here is the deal. You can argue all you want but Muslims, Jews and Christians all originated from the same PEOPLE . Agreed?

    yes....i agree
    Last edited by 87sooner; January 16th, 2013 at 10:27 PM.

  3. #103
    Originally Posted by Teo9969 View Post
    The correct answer is no.

    You can't have Christ be God and proceed to say that Muslims worship that same God. Period. Anybody arguing differently has a horrible grasp of how language, hermeneutics, theology and philosophy work in both theory and reality.

    The term "God of Abraham" on a global level means absolutely nothing.
    Christ isn't/wasn't God.

  4. #104
    Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret View Post
    Christ isn't/wasn't God.
    you must be a muslim

  5. #105
    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    you must be a muslim
    Try again.

  6. #106
    Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret View Post
    Try again.
    then you are misinformed

  7. #107
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    Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret View Post
    Christ isn't/wasn't God.
    To the Christian he was/is.

    I don't get the confusion about this. The God of the Bible and the God of the Kuran are different, and they say different things.

  8. #108
    Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post
    To the Christian he was/is.

    I don't get the confusion about this. The God of the Bible and the God of the Kuran are different, and they say different things.
    i think this is more important than the fact muslims deny the Trinity....
    if you examine the nature/characteristics of God and allah.....there is no doubt they are not the same god........

  9. #109
    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    i think this is more important than the fact muslims deny the Trinity....
    if you examine the nature/characteristics of God and allah.....there is no doubt they are not the same god........
    Fortunately for you, Allah/God doesnt keep people out of heaven/paradise for stupidity.

  10. #110

    do Christians/Muslims worship the same god?

    Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post
    To the Christian he was/is.

    I don't get the confusion about this. The God of the Bible and the God of the Kuran are different, and they say different things.
    In this same vein, the God of the OT and the God of the NT are different as well.

  11. #111
    Originally Posted by bruthaman View Post
    Fortunately for you, Allah/God doesnt keep people out of heaven/paradise for stupidity.
    equal helpings of hate and ignorance are your lifeblood....

  12. #112
    Originally Posted by oucub23 View Post
    In this same vein, the God of the OT and the God of the NT are different as well.
    how so?

  13. #113
    This all comes down to interpretation. All religions point at the same ultimate goal. A supreme being. The Creator. God. Allah. The Christian Bible interprets it one way, the Kuran interprets it one way, Buddhism interprets it their way... and so on. But they all lead to the same place.

  14. #114
    Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret View Post
    This all comes down to interpretation. All religions point at the same ultimate goal. A supreme being. The Creator. God. Allah. The Christian Bible interprets it one way, the Kuran interprets it one way, Buddhism interprets it their way... and so on. But they all lead to the same place.
    so now buddhists and christians worship the same god?

  15. #115
    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    so now buddhists and christians worship the same god?
    Yes.

  16. #116
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    Originally Posted by oucub23 View Post
    In this same vein, the God of the OT and the God of the NT are different as well.
    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    how so?
    God isn't different in one testament to the other . . . the covenant with man changed. God is the same.

  17. #117
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    Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret View Post
    This all comes down to interpretation. All religions point at the same ultimate goal. A supreme being. The Creator. God. Allah. The Christian Bible interprets it one way, the Kuran interprets it one way, Buddhism interprets it their way... and so on. But they all lead to the same place.
    I agree with this on a certain level. But someone should point out: not all Christians believe in the 'holy trinity' - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There are not three different gods. According to the Bible, Jesus is God's son - but not 'God' himself. And people got way off track with the 'Holy Spirit' stuff.

    Just my opinion here, but looking at the timing and the people who created it, and the content of the Koran, it's hard for me to believe Islam wasn't basically born out of butthurt. No matter how much you ****e it up with feel-good rhetoric. Does that mean I think Muslims are bad? No, please see the first sentence in this post.

  18. #118
    Originally Posted by Morningwood View Post
    I agree with this on a certain level. But someone should point out: not all Christians believe in the 'holy trinity' - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There are not three different gods. According to the Bible, Jesus is God's son - but not 'God' himself. And people got way off track with the 'Holy Spirit' stuff.

    Just my opinion here, but looking at the timing and the people who created it, and the content of the Koran, it's hard for me to believe Islam wasn't basically born out of butthurt. No matter how much you ****e it up with feel-good rhetoric. Does that mean I think Muslims are bad? No, please see the first sentence in this post.

    the part i bolded.....is false

  19. #119
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    the part i bolded.....is false
    False according to.... what you've been taught, or what the Bible says?

  20. #120
    Originally Posted by soonerprices View Post
    Here is the deal. You can argue all you want but Muslims, Jews and Christians religions all originated from the same God that flooded the earth, gave us the 10 commandments and kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden. Agreed?

    Yes the religions and beliefs and traditions are very different but at one time all the ancestors or Christians, Jews and Muslims worshiped as one.

    Just like today the baptist, Methodists, Weslyans, etc all worship differently, have different traditions and many use a vast translation of the bible.
    They all use a common mythology...that doesn't mean they came from nor worship the same God. (orthodox) Christians very specifically believe that Jesus is/was God. If you don't hold that opinion, it is quite simple to say that you are not an (orthodox) Christian.

    As far as that myth is concerned, you can probably go ahead and say that we all descended from the same person so according to the reductio ad absurdum we're applying in this case: Buddhism, Paganism, Hinduism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism are all related to Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

    The tie between Islam and Christianity has always been Abraham, not Elohim/Yahweh/Allah/Jesus/HolySpirit.

    If you want to get all post-modern, then there's really no point in comparing/contrasting any ancient religion.

  21. #121
    Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret View Post
    Christ isn't/wasn't God.
    I'm not here to defend that claim. I'm here to tell you that if the word "Christian" is to have any significant meaning, then that doctrine is core to the definition. Any belief or belief-system that lies outside of or dismisses that major tenet is considered heretical, including, but not limited to, Islam.

  22. #122
    Originally Posted by Morningwood View Post
    False according to.... what you've been taught, or what the Bible says?
    both

  23. #123
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    Originally Posted by Teo9969 View Post
    I'm not here to defend that claim. I'm here to tell you that if the word "Christian" is to have any significant meaning, then that doctrine is core to the definition. Any belief or belief-system that lies outside of or dismisses that major tenet is considered heretical, including, but not limited to, Islam.
    Considered heretical... by whom?

    And when you say (orthodox) Christians, do you mean Orthodox Christians? Or just (orthodox) Christians. I ask because (orthodox) Christians could mean anyone who bases their beliefs on what the Bible says. "Orthodox Christians" is the Eastern Orthodox Church. Not exactly the same thing.

    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    both
    Okay. Not trying to start a shitstorm, I think this is something that can be debated in a friendly manner. Let's do this: I will post a bible verse which specifically refutes what you've been taught. Then you post scripture that specifically indicates Jesus is not the all-powerful son of God, but is in fact God himself. Okay?

    Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

  24. #124
    john 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God............14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us......... 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God...

  25. #125
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    john 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God............14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us......... 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God...
    This is a really good discussion on John 1:1 . . .

  26. #126
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    john 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God............14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us......... 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God...
    87, interesting you would use that version of John 1:18 -- is that NLT? almost all translations don't use that phrase; instead they clearly indicate "the one and only Son" is not God himself. Even still, that version's wording is awkward. "Nobody has seen God, except his own Son, who is God".

    With pretty much any other translation, I could have used that verse to support my argument.

    KJV: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    Young's Literal: God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.
    Aramaic: No man has seen God at any time; The Only Begotten God Who is in the bosom of The Father, he has declared him.
    NIV: No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
    New American Standard: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    Hope that wasn't your trump card. Here's another one: John 20:17 - I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

  27. #127
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    I don't know how a clear message is ever delievered with any authority.

  28. #128
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    I think (based on studying the Bible on my own terms) that Jesus is basically offspring of God, he was a spirit being whom God entrusted and empowered to do God's will. Almost like "God 1b" but definitely not the same being. In fact it appears God delegated some pretty big deals to Jesus. He spent some time on Earth and is now back in Heaven.

  29. #129
    Originally Posted by Morningwood View Post
    87, interesting you would use that version of John 1:18 -- is that NLT? almost all translations don't use that phrase; instead they clearly indicate "the one and only Son" is not God himself. Even still, that version's wording is awkward. "Nobody has seen God, except his own Son, who is God".

    With pretty much any other translation, I could have used that verse to support my argument.

    KJV: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    Young's Literal: God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.
    Aramaic: No man has seen God at any time; The Only Begotten God Who is in the bosom of The Father, he has declared him.
    NIV: No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
    New American Standard: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    Hope that wasn't your trump card. Here's another one: John 20:17 - I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    actually i used the niv for john 1:18...

    the problem with the verses you are quoting is that they focus on Jesus as a man here on earth....
    He is "positionally" inferior to God the father as a man....but He is still God....

  30. #130
    Originally Posted by Morningwood View Post
    I think (based on studying the Bible on my own terms) that Jesus is basically offspring of God, he was a spirit being whom God entrusted and empowered to do God's will. Almost like "God 1b" but definitely not the same being. In fact it appears God delegated some pretty big deals to Jesus. He spent some time on Earth and is now back in Heaven.
    are you a jehovah's witness?

  31. #131
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    actually i used the niv for john 1:18...

    the problem with the verses you are quoting is that they focus on Jesus as a man here on earth....
    He is "positionally" inferior to God the father as a man....but He is still God....
    Can you see why this would be confusing? Because it sounds ****ing confusing.
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  32. #132
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    Isaiah 9:6
    For unto us a Child is born,
    Unto us a Son is given;
    And the government will be upon His shoulder.
    And His name will be called
    Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

  33. #133
    Originally Posted by Dexa View Post
    Can you see why this would be confusing? Because it sounds ****ing confusing.

    yes ....it is confusing....it is not an easy concept to grasp.....i have and still struggle at times wrapping my mind around it....

    the way i look at it....a human body is a vessel that cannot possibly contain all of God.....
    but in heaven......Jesus is separate but equal to God....
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  34. #134
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    actually i used the niv for john 1:18...

    the problem with the verses you are quoting is that they focus on Jesus as a man here on earth....
    He is "positionally" inferior to God the father as a man....but He is still God....
    But it's the verse *you* offered, it's unlike most translations, and it's a little murky.

    Jesus sometimes talked about God as though they were one, not unlike teamspeak or any description of beings who are like-minded. But he also spoke very specific sentences to indicate he was the "Son of God". Those are not murky or full of rhetoric.

  35. #135
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    are you a jehovah's witness?
    Hell no but I think they are probably among the best students of the Bible, as a group. Their problem is how they take liberties with "what should be read literally" and what shouldn't. And the fact they crystallized some beliefs *before* they made their own translation, then poof - their beliefs perfectly align with the Bible.

  36. #136
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    yes ....it is confusing....it is not an easy concept to grasp.....i have and still struggle at times wrapping my mind around it....

    the way i look at it....a human body is a vessel that cannot possibly contain all of God.....
    but in heaven......Jesus is separate but equal to God....
    Well "seperate but equal to" is exactly what I am saying. So, we agree.

  37. #137
    Originally Posted by Morningwood View Post
    But it's the verse *you* offered, it's unlike most translations, and it's a little murky.

    Jesus sometimes talked about God as though they were one, not unlike teamspeak or any description of beings who are like-minded. But he also spoke very specific sentences to indicate he was the "Son of God". Those are not murky or full of rhetoric.
    yes....it was the verse i offered.....i just copied it from an niv source on line......i wasn't aware until recently that the niv has been revised very recently......this must be one of the verses that has changed.....
    so toss verse 18......verse 1 and 14 are quite clear....Jesus and God are separate distinct "beings".....but the same.....all at the same time....

  38. #138
    Originally Posted by Morningwood View Post
    Well "seperate but equal to" is exactly what I am saying. So, we agree.
    i should have said "separate.....equal....and the same...all at the same time"..

  39. #139
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    so now buddhists and christians worship the same god?
    Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret View Post
    Yes.
    What god do Buddhists worship?

  40. #140
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    Originally Posted by VUGear View Post
    What god do Buddhists worship?
    the god of nothing?

  41. #141
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    i should have said "separate.....equal....and the same...all at the same time"..
    Hah okay. I'll agree to disagree.

    "I argued the Bible with Sooner87, and all I got was this rash"

  42. #142
    Originally Posted by VUGear View Post
    What god do Buddhists worship?
    Buddha

  43. #143
    Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret View Post
    Buddha

    i don't think they worship buddha....i don't think they worship anything....

  44. #144
    Originally Posted by Morningwood View Post
    Hah okay. I'll agree to disagree.

    "I argued the Bible with Sooner87, and all I got was this rash"
    whether you believe it or understand it.......teo is right.....Jesus is God is a tenet of christianity....

  45. #145
    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    i don't think they worship buddha....i don't think they worship anything....
    they practice the teachings of Buddha. practice, worship. It's all semantics.

  46. #146
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    Originally Posted by 87sooner View Post
    whether you believe it or understand it.......teo is right.....Jesus is God is a tenet of christianity....
    If I wanted some shady outfits telling me what I should believe, then I'd be concerned.

    Again - refer to the Bible, not what certain people tell you the Bible says. It's pretty clear.

  47. #147
    Originally Posted by Morningwood View Post
    If I wanted some shady outfits telling me what I should believe, then I'd be concerned.

    Again - refer to the Bible, not what certain people tell you the Bible says. It's pretty clear.
    a. i did refer to the bible.....john 1:1....extremely clear......

    b. see a

  48. #148
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    my news years resolution was to avoid religious talk with you crazies... So what is God is god and it doesn't matter the name of the god, is it really so hard to think of it that way
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  49. #149
    Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    my news years resolution was to avoid religious talk with you crazies... So what is God is god and it doesn't matter the name of the god, is it really so hard to think of it that way
    You get tired of fightingabout dog food too?
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  50. #150
    Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    my news years resolution was to avoid religious talk with you crazies... So what is God is god and it doesn't matter the name of the god, is it really so hard to think of it that way
    stick to your new years resolution....

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