do Christians/Muslims worship the same god?

**soonerprices** · 01-16-2013 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Teo9969

The correct answer is no.

You can't have Christ be God and proceed to say that Muslims worship that same God. Period. Anybody arguing differently has a horrible grasp of how language, hermeneutics, theology and philosophy work in both theory and reality.

The term "God of Abraham" on a global level means absolutely nothing.

Here is the deal. You can argue all you want but Muslims, Jews and Christians religions all originated from the same God that flooded the earth, gave us the 10 commandments and kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden. Agreed?

Yes the religions and beliefs and traditions are very different but at one time all the ancestors or Christians, Jews and Muslims worshiped as one.

Just like today the baptist, Methodists, Weslyans, etc all worship differently, have different traditions and many use a vast translation of the bible.

**87sooner** · 01-16-2013 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by soonerprices

Here is the deal. You can argue all you want but Muslims, Jews and Christians all originated from the same PEOPLE . Agreed?

yes....i agree

**soonerbornsoonerbret** · 01-16-2013 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Teo9969

The correct answer is no.

You can't have Christ be God and proceed to say that Muslims worship that same God. Period. Anybody arguing differently has a horrible grasp of how language, hermeneutics, theology and philosophy work in both theory and reality.

The term "God of Abraham" on a global level means absolutely nothing.

Christ isn't/wasn't God.

**87sooner** · 01-16-2013 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret

Christ isn't/wasn't God.

you must be a muslim

**soonerbornsoonerbret** · 01-16-2013 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

you must be a muslim

Try again.

**87sooner** · 01-16-2013 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret

Try again.

then you are misinformed

**Nazgul** · 01-16-2013 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret

Christ isn't/wasn't God.

To the Christian he was/is.

I don't get the confusion about this. The God of the Bible and the God of the Kuran are different, and they say different things.

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Nazgul

To the Christian he was/is.

I don't get the confusion about this. The God of the Bible and the God of the Kuran are different, and they say different things.

i think this is more important than the fact muslims deny the Trinity....
if you examine the nature/characteristics of God and allah.....there is no doubt they are not the same god........

**bruthaman** · 01-17-2013 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

i think this is more important than the fact muslims deny the Trinity....
if you examine the nature/characteristics of God and allah.....there is no doubt they are not the same god........

Fortunately for you, Allah/God doesnt keep people out of heaven/paradise for stupidity.

**oucub23** · 01-17-2013 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Nazgul

To the Christian he was/is.

I don't get the confusion about this. The God of the Bible and the God of the Kuran are different, and they say different things.

In this same vein, the God of the OT and the God of the NT are different as well.

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by bruthaman

Fortunately for you, Allah/God doesnt keep people out of heaven/paradise for stupidity.

equal helpings of hate and ignorance are your lifeblood....

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by oucub23

In this same vein, the God of the OT and the God of the NT are different as well.

how so?

**soonerbornsoonerbret** · 01-17-2013 09:26 AM

This all comes down to interpretation. All religions point at the same ultimate goal. A supreme being. The Creator. God. Allah. The Christian Bible interprets it one way, the Kuran interprets it one way, Buddhism interprets it their way... and so on. But they all lead to the same place.

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret

This all comes down to interpretation. All religions point at the same ultimate goal. A supreme being. The Creator. God. Allah. The Christian Bible interprets it one way, the Kuran interprets it one way, Buddhism interprets it their way... and so on. But they all lead to the same place.

so now buddhists and christians worship the same god?

**soonerbornsoonerbret** · 01-17-2013 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

so now buddhists and christians worship the same god?

Yes.

**Sooner Bob** · 01-17-2013 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by oucub23

In this same vein, the God of the OT and the God of the NT are different as well.

Originally Posted by 87sooner

how so?

God isn't different in one testament to the other . . . the covenant with man changed. God is the same.

**Morningwood** · 01-17-2013 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret

This all comes down to interpretation. All religions point at the same ultimate goal. A supreme being. The Creator. God. Allah. The Christian Bible interprets it one way, the Kuran interprets it one way, Buddhism interprets it their way... and so on. But they all lead to the same place.

I agree with this on a certain level. But someone should point out: not all Christians believe in the 'holy trinity' - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There are not three different gods. According to the Bible, Jesus is God's son - but not 'God' himself. And people got way off track with the 'Holy Spirit' stuff.

Just my opinion here, but looking at the timing and the people who created it, and the content of the Koran, it's hard for me to believe Islam wasn't basically born out of butthurt. No matter how much you ****e it up with feel-good rhetoric. Does that mean I think Muslims are bad? No, please see the first sentence in this post.

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Morningwood

I agree with this on a certain level. But someone should point out: not all Christians believe in the 'holy trinity' - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There are not three different gods. According to the Bible, Jesus is God's son - but not 'God' himself. And people got way off track with the 'Holy Spirit' stuff.

Just my opinion here, but looking at the timing and the people who created it, and the content of the Koran, it's hard for me to believe Islam wasn't basically born out of butthurt. No matter how much you ****e it up with feel-good rhetoric. Does that mean I think Muslims are bad? No, please see the first sentence in this post.

the part i bolded.....is false

**Morningwood** · 01-17-2013 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

the part i bolded.....is false

False according to.... what you've been taught, or what the Bible says?

**Teo9969** · 01-17-2013 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by soonerprices

Here is the deal. You can argue all you want but Muslims, Jews and Christians religions all originated from the same God that flooded the earth, gave us the 10 commandments and kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden. Agreed?

Yes the religions and beliefs and traditions are very different but at one time all the ancestors or Christians, Jews and Muslims worshiped as one.

Just like today the baptist, Methodists, Weslyans, etc all worship differently, have different traditions and many use a vast translation of the bible.

They all use a common mythology...that doesn't mean they came from nor worship the same God. (orthodox) Christians very specifically believe that Jesus is/was God. If you don't hold that opinion, it is quite simple to say that you are not an (orthodox) Christian.

As far as that myth is concerned, you can probably go ahead and say that we all descended from the same person so according to the reductio ad absurdum we're applying in this case: Buddhism, Paganism, Hinduism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism are all related to Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

The tie between Islam and Christianity has always been Abraham, not Elohim/Yahweh/Allah/Jesus/HolySpirit.

If you want to get all post-modern, then there's really no point in comparing/contrasting any ancient religion.

**Teo9969** · 01-17-2013 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret

Christ isn't/wasn't God.

I'm not here to defend that claim. I'm here to tell you that if the word "Christian" is to have any significant meaning, then that doctrine is core to the definition. Any belief or belief-system that lies outside of or dismisses that major tenet is considered heretical, including, but not limited to, Islam.

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Morningwood

False according to.... what you've been taught, or what the Bible says?

both

**Morningwood** · 01-17-2013 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Teo9969

I'm not here to defend that claim. I'm here to tell you that if the word "Christian" is to have any significant meaning, then that doctrine is core to the definition. Any belief or belief-system that lies outside of or dismisses that major tenet is considered heretical, including, but not limited to, Islam.

Considered heretical... by whom?

And when you say (orthodox) Christians, do you mean Orthodox Christians? Or just (orthodox) Christians. I ask because (orthodox) Christians could mean anyone who bases their beliefs on what the Bible says. "Orthodox Christians" is the Eastern Orthodox Church. Not exactly the same thing.

Originally Posted by 87sooner

both

Okay. Not trying to start a ****storm, I think this is something that can be debated in a friendly manner. Let's do this: I will post a bible verse which specifically refutes what you've been taught. Then you post scripture that specifically indicates Jesus is not the all-powerful son of God, but is in fact God himself. Okay?

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 02:28 PM

john 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God............14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us......... 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God...

**Sooner Bob** · 01-17-2013 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

john 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God............14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us......... 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God...

This is a really good discussion on John 1:1 . . .

**Morningwood** · 01-17-2013 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

john 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God............14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us......... 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God...

87, interesting you would use that version of John 1:18 -- is that NLT? almost all translations don't use that phrase; instead they clearly indicate "the one and only Son" is not God himself. Even still, that version's wording is awkward. "Nobody has seen God, except his own Son, who is God".

With pretty much any other translation, I could have used that verse to support my argument.

KJV: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Young's Literal: God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.
Aramaic: No man has seen God at any time; The Only Begotten God Who is in the bosom of The Father, he has declared him.
NIV: No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
New American Standard: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Hope that wasn't your trump card. Here's another one: John 20:17 - I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

**Dexa** · 01-17-2013 03:07 PM

I don't know how a clear message is ever delievered with any authority.

**Morningwood** · 01-17-2013 03:09 PM

I think (based on studying the Bible on my own terms) that Jesus is basically offspring of God, he was a spirit being whom God entrusted and empowered to do God's will. Almost like "God 1b" but definitely not the same being. In fact it appears God delegated some pretty big deals to Jesus. He spent some time on Earth and is now back in Heaven.

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Morningwood

87, interesting you would use that version of John 1:18 -- is that NLT? almost all translations don't use that phrase; instead they clearly indicate "the one and only Son" is not God himself. Even still, that version's wording is awkward. "Nobody has seen God, except his own Son, who is God".

With pretty much any other translation, I could have used that verse to support my argument.

KJV: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Young's Literal: God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.
Aramaic: No man has seen God at any time; The Only Begotten God Who is in the bosom of The Father, he has declared him.
NIV: No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
New American Standard: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Hope that wasn't your trump card. Here's another one: John 20:17 - I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

actually i used the niv for john 1:18...

the problem with the verses you are quoting is that they focus on Jesus as a man here on earth....
He is "positionally" inferior to God the father as a man....but He is still God....

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Morningwood

I think (based on studying the Bible on my own terms) that Jesus is basically offspring of God, he was a spirit being whom God entrusted and empowered to do God's will. Almost like "God 1b" but definitely not the same being. In fact it appears God delegated some pretty big deals to Jesus. He spent some time on Earth and is now back in Heaven.

are you a jehovah's witness?

**Dexa** · 01-17-2013 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

actually i used the niv for john 1:18...

the problem with the verses you are quoting is that they focus on Jesus as a man here on earth....
He is "positionally" inferior to God the father as a man....but He is still God....

Can you see why this would be confusing? Because it sounds ****ing confusing.

**Sooner Bob** · 01-17-2013 03:18 PM

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Dexa

Can you see why this would be confusing? Because it sounds ****ing confusing.

yes ....it is confusing....it is not an easy concept to grasp.....i have and still struggle at times wrapping my mind around it....

the way i look at it....a human body is a vessel that cannot possibly contain all of God.....
but in heaven......Jesus is separate but equal to God....

**Morningwood** · 01-17-2013 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

actually i used the niv for john 1:18...

the problem with the verses you are quoting is that they focus on Jesus as a man here on earth....
He is "positionally" inferior to God the father as a man....but He is still God....

But it's the verse *you* offered, it's unlike most translations, and it's a little murky.

Jesus sometimes talked about God as though they were one, not unlike teamspeak or any description of beings who are like-minded. But he also spoke very specific sentences to indicate he was the "Son of God". Those are not murky or full of rhetoric.

**Morningwood** · 01-17-2013 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

are you a jehovah's witness?

Hell no but I think they are probably among the best students of the Bible, as a group. Their problem is how they take liberties with "what should be read literally" and what shouldn't. And the fact they crystallized some beliefs *before* they made their own translation, then poof - their beliefs perfectly align with the Bible.

**Morningwood** · 01-17-2013 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

yes ....it is confusing....it is not an easy concept to grasp.....i have and still struggle at times wrapping my mind around it....

the way i look at it....a human body is a vessel that cannot possibly contain all of God.....
but in heaven......Jesus is separate but equal to God....

Well "seperate but equal to" is exactly what I am saying. So, we agree.

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Morningwood

But it's the verse *you* offered, it's unlike most translations, and it's a little murky.

Jesus sometimes talked about God as though they were one, not unlike teamspeak or any description of beings who are like-minded. But he also spoke very specific sentences to indicate he was the "Son of God". Those are not murky or full of rhetoric.

yes....it was the verse i offered.....i just copied it from an niv source on line......i wasn't aware until recently that the niv has been revised very recently......this must be one of the verses that has changed.....
so toss verse 18......verse 1 and 14 are quite clear....Jesus and God are separate distinct "beings".....but the same.....all at the same time....

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Morningwood

Well "seperate but equal to" is exactly what I am saying. So, we agree.

i should have said "separate.....equal....and the same...all at the same time"..

**VUGear** · 01-17-2013 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

so now buddhists and christians worship the same god?

Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret

Yes.

What god do Buddhists worship?

**Sooner Bob** · 01-17-2013 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by VUGear

What god do Buddhists worship?

the god of nothing?

**Morningwood** · 01-17-2013 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

i should have said "separate.....equal....and the same...all at the same time"..

Hah okay. I'll agree to disagree.

"I argued the Bible with Sooner87, and all I got was this rash"

**soonerbornsoonerbret** · 01-17-2013 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by VUGear

What god do Buddhists worship?

Buddh****

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by soonerbornsoonerbret

Buddha

i don't think they worship buddha....i don't think they worship anything....

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Morningwood

Hah okay. I'll agree to disagree.

"I argued the Bible with Sooner87, and all I got was this rash"

whether you believe it or understand it.......teo is right.....Jesus is God is a tenet of christianity....

**soonerbornsoonerbret** · 01-17-2013 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

i don't think they worship buddha....i don't think they worship anything....

they practice the teachings of Buddha. practice, worship. It's all semantics.

**Morningwood** · 01-17-2013 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by 87sooner

whether you believe it or understand it.......teo is right.....Jesus is God is a tenet of christianity....

If I wanted some shady outfits telling me what I should believe, then I'd be concerned.

Again - refer to the Bible, not what certain people tell you the Bible says. It's pretty clear.

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Morningwood

If I wanted some shady outfits telling me what I should believe, then I'd be concerned.

Again - refer to the Bible, not what certain people tell you the Bible says. It's pretty clear.

a. i did refer to the bible.....john 1:1....extremely clear......

b. see ****

**Aurora** · 01-17-2013 04:26 PM

my news years resolution was to avoid religious talk with you crazies... So what is God is god and it doesn't matter the name of the god, is it really so hard to think of it that way

**soonerbornsoonerbret** · 01-17-2013 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Aurora

my news years resolution was to avoid religious talk with you crazies... So what is God is god and it doesn't matter the name of the god, is it really so hard to think of it that way

You get tired of fightingabout dog food too?

**87sooner** · 01-17-2013 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Aurora

my news years resolution was to avoid religious talk with you crazies... So what is God is god and it doesn't matter the name of the god, is it really so hard to think of it that way

stick to your new years resolution....

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